LotR1-FotR-Seq03

[Mister Underhill]

I think what Lal is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Lal), is that the sequence is edited in such a way as to make you think a Nazgûl got to Bag End ahead of Gandalf --

• "There's no Bagginses here. They're all up in Hobbiton... that way!"
• Songs and beers and table-talk at the inn.
• Frodo staggers home -- it's creepy in there -- OMG! Is that black-robed dude there waiting for him?
• Ahh! Oh, no, it's just Gandalf. Don't jump out of the shadows like that Gandalf, you nearly gave me a heart attack.
• Frodo digs out the Ring.
• Gandalf throws it in the fire. It's the Ring. Hoo-boy, it's gonna be good when that black-cloacked dude gets there. Should be any second now...
• Wait, they're having tea? What's with all this talking? C'mon, black-cloaked dude, use your spurs or something.
• Oh -- there's the wraith, and now he's got a buddy. Sweet! Go ahead and pack, Frodo, you're toast.
• Sam, you want some too? Okay, black-cloaked dude attack imminent...
• It's morning? Did the black-cloaked dudes decide to stop at a motel and catch some shuteye, or...?

I trace it back to that moment of suspense at Bag End and my previous comments. So much time passes between the Nazgûl being pointed the way to Hobbiton and Frodo's departure that the audience might easily be disoriented as to why the wraiths never show up. Book fans, of course, will understand that the Shire is a rather large place and perhaps forgive PJ, but judging the movie as a movie on its own terms, I think Jackson makes a mistake here by specifically trying to trick you into thinking a Nazgûl might be in Bag End so early in the sequence.

I think PJ trades what might have been a genuinely suspenseful moment -- a narrow escape from Bag End -- for a rather cheap one -- Gandalf jumps out of the shadows.

One thing I've noticed in rewatching these sequences is the amount of repetition of information. Within the first forty minutes or so, we see and/or are told the story of Isildur three times. I understand that there's a lot of information here for the audience to take in, so some repetition is necessary, but I wonder how much is too much, and whether or not Isildur's story deserves this much focus as a plot element. Something to think on.

I'd still like to come back and visit several points made earlier in the thread, but this has been a busy week for me. More later, perchance.

EDIT: Cross-posted with morm and alatar, who both make good points.

[Essex]

my guess is that PJ et al just chose to modify the scene in order to PJ-ify

It's called suspense! or building the atmosphere up..... didn't gandalf turn up at night in the book too anyway? ok so he didn't grab him, but does this really matter? Is it really that different to the book? ok, I think it might have worked better to see the Nazgul at Gaffer's door, but other than that, to condense the time and move the movie on, the hobbits left straight away......

what about the 17 year gap - to a movie is it really that important?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Essex

what about the 17 year gap - to a movie is it really that important?

Not 17 per se but some time passing is important because as it currently sits I still feel that only a small amount of time has passed. This creates great confusion for many because they just see Gandalf leave quickly read some papers and return, meanwhile the Nazgul leave Mordor and arrive in the Shire. It simply doesn't make sense and there is no continuity. This could have been alleviated had we merely known that sometime passes and Gandalf needed to depart immediately while Frodo should leave soon. I still look and wonder why it was more important for Gandalf to run off to Saruman then help two defenseless hobbits carry out the most important task of the third age?!?!

[Essex]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I still look and wonder why it was more important for Gandalf to run off to Saruman then help two defenseless hobbits carry out the most important task of the third age?!?!

but wasn't it ALWAYS Gandalf's job to bog off when it came to Hobbit's jouneying? I always remember at school reading the Hobbit - oh there gandalf goes again! (or other words to that affect) - but years later I realised he was at the Council and planning to get Sauron out of Dol Guldur.

So he goes to see Saruman to find out what to do. Now (sacrilige here maybe) - but isn't it a better idea to get the hobbits out of the Shire as soon as possible and send them on their way rather than making them wait for him to come back as he does in the book?

We must also remember that Gandalf DID NOT KNOW THE RINGWRAITHS WERE HUNTING FRODO DOWN YET. That is why he could go to see Saruman. Remember the passage coming up soon with Saruman. Saruman tells him the Nine had left Minas Morgul - What happens? FRODO! - He gasps and attempts to leave, no doubt to rush back to aid Frodo.....

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor
It seems to me, I don't have a copy of LOTR at the moment, that the scene of the Ring showing letters after a pause was taken from the book.

In the book, the writing is visible as soon as the Ring is taken from the fire.
Quote:
'It is quite cool,’ said Gandalf. ‘Take it!’ Frodo received it on his shrinking palm: it seemed to have become thicker and heavier than ever.

‘Hold it up!’ said Gandalf. ‘And look closely!’

As Frodo did so, he now saw fine lines, finer than the finest pen-strokes, running along the ring, outside and inside: lines of fire that seemed to form the letters of a flowing script...

The writing is visible when the Ring is heated up, and fades when it cools -- and this is exactly how the Ring is portrayed in the movie in this very sequence: at 00:34:06, after Sauron has gone nova and Isildur picks up the Ring, now separated from the heat of its master, the writing begins to fade.
========================
It may be me, but I still find the book version somewhat ambiguous
about the writing appearing sequence. As for the movie, you recall that
Frodo says something like (in response to Gandalf's query about what he sees) "Nothing", and then "No, wait, there are letters", which indicates a delay in the lettering appearing.

And is there some breakdown of future segments to be discussed. I assume
the ridiculous way Merry and Pippin join the flight is included in the next
segment.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

It's called suspense! or building the atmosphere up..... didn't gandalf turn up at night in the book too anyway? ok so he didn't grab him, but does this really matter?

Yes, it does in this case. In the minutes of film preceding the Frodo-grabbing scene, we see Gandalf as a wise caring old wizard man, beloved both by children and at least two older hobbits. We've seen him actually hug both of these characters. He could have simply yelled back to Frodo, "See ya!" as he ran out the door for Minas Tirith. But PJ has this character stop, turn and take a moment to reassure Frodo. And he places a hand on his shoulder. That touching is important, as it did not need to be in the film. This same touch on the shoulder would later be used to shock.

Nothing in the film (we hope!) appears by accident - we're not watching live footage but a medium in which there might be 29 individuals 'pictures' every second, and each of those pictures is what the producer/director wants us to see. This group made sure each of those pictures had the right color, brightness, computerized effects, etc. Now, to zoom back out, we have a main character doing something. Then, moments later, this same character does something that to me is out of character, and the only reason that I can posit for the action is cheap thrill.

If we are to have suspense, use a cat.

My guess, as stated previously, that we here could have written the scene to include suspense yet allow for the characters to remain internally consistent and also to show some 'traveling time.'

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by alatar

In the movie Mortal Kombat

Ouch! Okay, I have a few problems with Jackson's LotR, but there's no need to be insulting with Mortal Kombat comparisons.

Seriously, though, repetition is a useful tool for filmmakers, who work in a medium where you can't flip back a few pages if you get lost or confused. I'm not necessarily citing this hammering of Isildur's history as a flaw (though in fact I think there are places where Jackson overuses voice or flashback cues to MAKE SURE THE AUDIENCE GETS IT, but we'll come to those in time...), just making an observation. I think you're right that he's really drilling it for the sake of the Aragorn storyline down the road.

Originally Posted by Essex

We must also remember that Gandalf DID NOT KNOW THE RINGWRAITHS WERE HUNTING FRODO DOWN YET.

This is true, though I think that Jackson adds to the confusion by having Gandalf act as if he expects an enemy to appear at any moment in Bag End.

On a more general note on the timeline, I wonder if a solution -- more in keeping with Tolkien's favoring abridgement over compression -- would be to have Gandalf already suspect that Bilbo's ring is the Ring when he arrives in the Shire for the party. It'd go something like this:

• Bilbo, with Gandalf's help, gives up the Ring and leaves for Rivendell.
• Frodo arrives in Bag End and picks up the Ring. Gandalf conducts his fire test right away, Shadows of the Past, etc.
• Gandalf needs advice from Saruman, he leaves to get it.
• Time passes -- maybe a few scenes of Frodo in the Shire, only now it doesn't seem so safe anymore. Maybe we even start to see the Ring beginning to weigh on Frodo's mind.
• Maybe something like that scene at the Green Dragon, only now when Frodo hears talk of "strange folk abroad" and whatnot, he seems more concerned than ever.
• Gandalf has not returned. Frodo, filled with foreboding, decides he must leave the Shire without waiting for Gandalf (either Gandalf proposed his plan earlier as in the book, or Frodo decides for himself to seek Bilbo and his Elvish friends in Rivendell).
• Frodo leaves just in time as he hears the Gaffer being questioned by a Nazgûl.
• Etc...

I'm just spitballing off the top of my head, but I think something along these line would be a little cleaner, and also make Frodo a stronger, more active character.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

• Gandalf has not returned. Frodo, filled with foreboding, decides he must leave the Shire without waiting for Gandalf (either Gandalf proposed his plan earlier as in the book, or Frodo decides for himself to seek Bilbo and his Elvish friends in Rivendell).
• Frodo leaves just in time as he hears the Gaffer being questioned by a Nazgûl.
• Etc...

I'm just spitballing off the top of my head, but I think something along these line would be a little cleaner, and also make Frodo a stronger, more active character.

Does Frodo know that Bilbo has gone off to Rivendell? Is that stated previously? And Gandalf points Frodo to Bree, which I think would have been better if he were to point him to Rivendell after going though Bree ("I'll meet you at the Prancing Pony in Bree; if I'm not there, then try to make it onto Rivendell."). He could even have said something about meeting someone along the way who may help, kind of like the elves whom Frodo meets who put out the word that he's out and about.

And by the by, my statement regarding Gandalf smoking in the corner of Bag End was silly. Isn't that the exact way Frodo encounters Strider? The audience, seeing all of the repetition might start thinking that the smoking lobby was underwriting the film ("Good guys smoke in the dark..." or "By their smoke you will know them.").

[Mister Underhill]

I think Gandalf has a line, something like, "He's gone to stay with the Elves." Anyway, if we're rewriting, it's easy enough to have Frodo know or be told that Bilbo is in Rivendell. The details of the plan can be figured out; the important changes are that we'd remove the Gandalf travel/research bit, Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire, and Frodo would become a more active character.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I think Gandalf has a line, something like, "He's gone to stay with the Elves." Anyway, if we're rewriting, it's easy enough to have Frodo know or be told that Bilbo is in Rivendell. The details of the plan can be figured out; the important changes are that we'd remove the Gandalf travel/research bit, Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire, and Frodo would become a more active character.

Why?

remove the Gandalf travel/research bit - This happens in the book, so it should stay.

Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire - this is a 3 hour movie, we can't show and extra few moths in the Shire whilst we've built up the tension to a high degree.

and Frodo would become a more active character - Frodo becomes an active character, and indeed it is one of the defining bits in this movie - when he graps the ring as says 'What must I do.' - marvellous line and acting, showing he HAS become active and taken Action.

Originally Posted by Alatar

Then, moments later, this same character does something that to me is out of character, and the only reason that I can posit for the action is cheap thrill.

Ok, partly I think it is done for the 'thrill' - (but not a cheap one) - We have built the last few scenes building up the tension around this ring being the One Ring - We have to remember it is a movie and not a mini series where we cantake things at a more sedate pace - the movie has to move along - so making Gandalf appear nervous / scared / worried that Frodo stilli has the Ring works for me. It is definately not on the top of my 'Annoyed by the Changes' List! - We have Gandalf in this state of mind to tie in with him sending Frodo off straight away - and this ties in with the Ring wraiths hunting Baggins down - I'm sorry to keep harping on about this, but he's just building the suspense up.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

One thing I've noticed in rewatching these sequences is the amount of repetition of information. Within the first forty minutes or so, we see and/or are told the story of Isildur three times. I understand that there's a lot of information here for the audience to take in, so some repetition is necessary, but I wonder how much is too much, and whether or not Isildur's story deserves this much focus as a plot element. Something to think on.

In the movie Mortal Kombat, the main theme of the movie is repeated many times. I've found that this works well with a younger audience and also makes the theme unmistakable by those unfamiliar with the story/characters/etc. Again, as PJ isn't known for subtlety, was this his way of hammering the 'history' home?

Was PJ making sure that we got it so that his references to Isildur later in the trilogy made some sense? He meant to show that by one man ME was cursed, and so would be redeemed later by one man. Is this to 'answer' questions like why didn't Elrond just bop Isildur on the head, take the Ring and cast it in the Crack?