LotR1-FotR-Seq04

[Dimturiel]

I was wondering whether anyone noticed that, when Saruman describes the Eye of Sauron to Gandalf, Gandalf leans on his staff as if he is suddenly feeling very weak and seems to be in pain. Why? Is it because, when he had seen the Eye after Bilbo had left, he too felt it "pierce his flesh"? I have always felt intrigued by this thing. And I also wonder why, when Gandal sees the Eye in the palantir, he does not tell Saruman immediately what he had just seen. Could it be because he is starting to suspect that something is not quite right with Saruman? This is all, for now, maybe I will come back with more later. ( And off topic, congratiulations Alatar!)

[Lalwendë]

I remember looking forwards to seeing Saruman, and the fact that it would be Christopher Lee playing him made this all the more intriguing, as I'm a bit of a fan. Incidentally I missed meeting him once in London, and I've been narked about it ever since. Garrr.

The depiction of Saruman and Orthanc could have been done in many different ways for me, as he is one character who has never been 'fixed' in my mind, and nor has Orthanc. If I had to choose one image I had of the place, it might have been as it appears in the film, strangely, as I've always liked the Alan Lee illustration, and he is the person responsible for this set. In his painting we can only see a small portion of the tower, yet it hints at something much, much more immense than what we are shown; the design is almost identical. I also like how the chain-link 'fence' has remained, as this is one aspect of Tolkien's description that has always stuck in my mind; it is simply weird to me. Why does Saruman have a chain link fence? Is it to keep people off the grass? Is he a park keeper?

As for Saruman, he could have been easily portrayed by a young guy for me, as I had no idea of how he might look, the only aspect I ever focussed on was his many-coloured cloak. I was disappointed not to see this! And yes, he did look a bit grubby. But I can't grumble as Christopher Lee is just fantastic. He has retained that creepy, masterful presence he had when playing Lord Summerisle, and his voice is possibly the best voice they could have chosen for Saruman. He can maintain a long monologue seemingly without drawing breath and it has a hypnotic quality.

One point that did strike me as interesting is how they show Gandalf to have incredible deference towards Saruman here. He begins by looking quite foolish, even sheepish as he listens to the leader of his order, and when Saruman starts to display his real intentions, Gandalf take some time to recover his senses. Here are two real professional actors at work.

In the books we do not actually meet Saruman until the Ents have destroyed Isengard. All we know of him is what others tell us about him. This is one of those instances where we did have to 'see' scenes which we do not personally 'see' in the books. What does everyone else think of this?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In the books we do not actually meet Saruman until the Ents have destroyed Isengard. All we know of him is what others tell us about him. This is one of those instances where we did have to 'see' scenes which we do not personally 'see' in the books. What does everyone else think of this?

This definately works on film, if it were simply dialogue between Frodo and Gandalf or Elrond and Gandalf it would be rather boring and uneventful. In this instance we are able to see and feel Saruman much more on a tangilbe level and it at least shows us where Gandalf went after he abandoned the hobbits.

Lal, I agree that Christopher Lee's voice is exceptional here and always intrigued me. He sounds very clever and cunning. Yet the way he is actually depicted doesn't show the subtilty of his plan. The book version is great where we see Saruman try and convince Gandalf and use the logic that "our goal is to accomplish order and we can do so by claiming the ring". It seems to me that Saruman is a pawn of Sauron with no agenda of his own. I think this detracts from the actual character of Saruman and doesn't show the duplicitious nature of his treachery. One extra minute would have accomplished this. It would have made more sense when Saruman said something like "I gave you a choice but you chose the way of pain" it doesn't really seem like Gandalf was given a choice as much.

Other than that I really like this scene, where it is placed, Christopher Lee, Orthanc is more or less how I imagined it, and the scenery is great.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Yet the way he is actually depicted doesn't show the subtilty of his plan. The book version is great where we see Saruman try and convince Gandalf and use the logic that "our goal is to accomplish order and we can do so by claiming the ring". It seems to me that Saruman is a pawn of Sauron with no agenda of his own. I think this detracts from the actual character of Saruman and doesn't show the duplicitious nature of his treachery.

I agree that they did simplify Saruman's true aims, and it did come across as though he simply wanted to follow Sauron. I think that they may have done this to simplify Saruman for the audience, who may not have coped with a 'bad guy' proposing a 'third way' suddenly materialising so close to the start of the story; the film focussed on the good/evil divide, and was complex a story enough without troubling poor cinema goers' minds with Saruman's true aims. At least I hope that this wa sthe aim, as otherwise I would take it that they themselves misinterpreted the nature of Saruman.

Still, even without this, I do think that this was one of the best character depictions in the films, simply due to the sheer quality of Christopher Lee's acting! And there is a hint that Saruman is more clever than we are led to believe. As portrayed, you can see him thinking on his toes all the time.

Originally Posted by mormegil

This definately works on film, if it were simply dialogue between Frodo and Gandalf or Elrond and Gandalf it would be rather boring and uneventful. In this instance we are able to see and feel Saruman much more on a tangilbe level and it at least shows us where Gandalf went after he abandoned the hobbits.

Yes, it would have been incredibly dull to only have heard of Saruman through the talk of other people in the film. Not only that, but when we read the book, when we first actually meet Saruman, we can flip back to the pages where he was mentioned before and view that information in a new light. You can't do that with a film, so this was the only way I believe.

The other thing about Christopher Lee's voice being so suitable for Saruman is that he is able to convey 'command' or 'authority'. It's worth comparing him in LotR to how he acts in The Wicker Man; in this film again he uses his voice to convey a character who it is very difficult to defy.

[Boromir88]

Again, I have to give kudos to the acting, and I will continue because the acting is one of the stronger points of the movies. I think most of the actors did a great job in making convincing characters in the movies. Chris Lee is no different, bringing in such a beloved Tolkien fan as well as an experienced actor was a big plus for the movies.

morm brings up a good point about the simplification of Saruman's goals. He certainly does seem like Sauron's puppet, a miniature Sauron. He becomes Sauron in TTT as Sauron is in ROTK. In the movies I got this picture that he was like "the lower boss," you know in those video games...to get to the head hancho you have to beat through the lower bosses. Saruman is certainly simplified, I believe he says "We must join with Sauron."

Also, I'm not convinced that the audience could not have seen a different motive. Where now instead of just plain Middle-earth vs. Sauron/Saruman we have Middle-earth vs. Sauron vs. Saruman (which is the way I pictured it in the books). Saruman may have communicated and shared details with Sauron, but I got the impression that Sauron was using Saruman for his own purposes, and Saruman was planning to backstab Sauron.

Now could we have had this in the movies without creating a lot of complexion? I think so. I think it's been done in other movies as well, where we have multiple factions, multiple goals for each side. Each side is in it for a different reason.

Braveheart comes to mind right now where we have the Big Bad English dominating the Scots, but we have the Scottish nobles who can't break away from England because they're fighting amongst themselves. They can't decide who is to rule them, and they can't be united, each "faction" has their own agenda.

So, I think portraying Saruman as this man who comes to Gandalf and says..."Hey, together we can beat Sauron and we can use this Ring to restore Order and overthrow Sauron." And of course, Gandalf being the good guy that he is, saying that's all wrong. But, now we see that Middle-earth also has to deal with Saruman, not just as a mimic of Sauron, but someone who's after the Ring himself for his own power. (And we'll see this used later in Boromir/Denethor/Faramir scenese especially TTT EE. Don't see why it not here).

With all that being said, I think the movies did do a good job of establishing the feeling of "something's not right with this other wizard." Even before we meet him we have Gandalf tell Frodo "I must see the head of my order, he is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo. He'll no what to do." Lines like that may seem, ok everything's going to be fine, but it's just a use of irony. Just by using "Trust me, Frodo. He'll no what to do." I don't know about you, but I got a sense of, "Umm, he's not going to know what to do," or atleast what the "right" thing to do is.

Then when we get to the actual scene we start having our suspicions reaffirmed. Once we get to the Palantir, and Gandalf touches it, with the flash of "The Eye of Sauron." We then get the history of the Palantiri and that's basically the climax right there, we now are pretty confident Saruman's not a good guy.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Chris Lee is, without a doubt, perfect for the role of Saruman. His appearance, his voice, his commanding demeanor, totally awesome. One of the best-casted parts in a movie that had many great ones.

I too would have liked to have seen Saruman's independence from Sauron. I don't think this would have been too difficult to accomplish, and kudos to Boromir for several great points about that.

I liked the fight scene and loved the accompanying score, which, as critics have negatively pointed out, is reminiscent of John Williams' Duel of the Fates in SWI:PM. All in all, while I would have liked to see some more complexity in Saruman's character, I thought he was done excellently and was very impressed in my first look at him in the movie. Plus, Isengard and Orthanc absolutely rock!

[Lathriel]

I as well like the scenery.
As for the trees that are still standing. If they had already been gone there would have been no tension and it would have been so easy to guess that Saruman was a bad guy. Plus when the orcs tear the trees down later in the movie it makes you mad because you knew of what the Orthanc looked like before.
I didn't expect the wizard fight when I first saw the movie. Somehow I know I wouldn't have lked it if lightbolts would be shot across the room. I guess its because it would remind me of the lazer beams in Star Wars.
Anyway, I'll add more to the discussion later.