Is Eru God?

[Gothmog]

I say Eru is not God. He is a God, but not the .

As christian, it's obvious that Tolkien's view of a god is that of the Christian/Jewish(/Muslim/Buddhist etc. as all gods are the same according to many people) and he's been influenced by that of course. Because of his attempt to create a complete mythology, he needed a creator and a story of creation. And what is more natural than get inspiration from the Creator he believed in?

But if you say that Eru is God, you say that Tolkien tried to describe God through Eru Illuvatar and as Kuruharan wrote in his post, Tolkien wouldn't like to compare something of his own creation with something as complex and beyond expressions as God. I think Tolkien had too much respect towards God to write about him in his books.

Unconscious of it, Eru might have become an equivalent to God, or at least can be regarded as such by people. It's obvious, as we are discussing it right now. But if the question is, did Tolkien mean Eru as God, I say no.

Fordim:

There's a lot hanging on this question: if you believe that Eru is God, then you are saying that the moral "rules" of M-E are Christian. If you believe that Eru is not God, then those "rules" are something else.

I think you're simplifying things a bit here. I don't believe Eru is God, but I do believe that the moral rules of M-E are Christian. Tokien, as Christian and Catholic, had certain views of what was moraly correct and what was to consider "bad". The eternal battle between Good and Evil. These opinions are reflected in his work. But most moral rules aren't specific Christian rules, but more of common sense and a worldspread moral code. Killing is bad. So is torture, betrayal, lies, greed etc. Helping others, sacrificing oneself for someone or something etc is considered good.

One thing that I find interesting in the comparing of Eru and God is what that make Valar. Angelic beings you say, but to me Manwe seem to have more power than any archangel of the Christian religion. He's more of a semi-god. M-E is his kingdom, not Eru's domain even if Manwe subordinate to Iluvatar. There's no equivalent in Tolkien's religion.

Also intersting is Melkor's role as the fallen angel, becoming the Dark Lord. In this case, there's a lot of similarities with Christianity and Satan's fall. He was one of the greatest angel's, one of those with most power and one of those closest to God, but was hungry for more power. Exactly like Melkor. They both fell and became to metaphor of Evil.

And there ends my oversized discussion. Wake up again! I vote NO

[Kuruharan]

Chicken.

Tis better to be a correct chicken than an incorrect dogmatist (even though I will wildly alternate between conditions from time to time...okay maybe from moment to moment.)

[Mithalwen]

I just about agree with Gothmog so won't repeat. If by God you mean a supreme creating being the answer is yes. But if that capitalisation you assign him exclusively to the Christian tradition then no. But personally I think it a little arrogant of the believers to define and lay claim to god (rather like the bacteria in the petrie dish laying claims on the scientist) and so since monotheists by definition believe in one god, that rather implies that Allah, Yaweh and God are one and the same and so the answer is yes.

Eru is really more of a divine clockmaker - sets the thing in motion and watches rather than getting personally involved. Which is more or less my perception of God these days so I could say yes but it is clearly not what Fordim means so it goes back to no...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

And yet, Mith you have failed to put your vote where your mouth is....why the reluctance to weigh in with an actual "Yes" or "No"?

As to your view of Eru as "setting things in motion" without actually "getting involved", how do you explain what happens at Mount Doom when Gollum "slips" into the Fire? Tolkien himself was quite clear (in the Letters somewhere) that there was the direct intervention from 'outside' at that point....

[Gothmog]

But Fordim, doesn't your own excellent poll say that Gollum slipped? If we listen to the majority...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

And yet, Mith you have failed to put your vote where your mouth is....why the reluctance to weigh in with an actual "Yes" or "No"?

.

Surely it is the most honest and natural course of action for an agnostic?

[Folwren]

I voted no, and for those who are keeping close tabs on this - I'm working on my reasons offline.

-- Folwren

[Bergil]

To my mind, there are no (or few) "christian morals", or rather, they're little different from everyone else's morals. You do the right thing (because it's right or for a reward CF:Heaven), or you do the wrong thing. In other words, I can't tell whether or not Eru is THAT god or A god, they all look similar.

I didn't vote.