LotR1-FotR-Seq06

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

But the question remains: why did PJ choose to show the Uruks as being born from some mud pit, whereas in the books it's much different.

I think it's the case that Tolkien does not show HOW they are 'born'. So it is not 'different' - just showing something that Tolkien glosses over?

or does he mention somewhere that I've forgotten?

All I can find is: (from The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves)

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mokery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes

and Treebeard

"For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

and Hamling

'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun'

now where Tolkien show how they are 'created' - he mentions words like Multiply and Spawn in the Fellowship - but (to me at least) he does not state how they are born, other than they came from Elves as my first quote above.

[Kath]

I don't really see that it's greatly important to know how the Uruk-hai were created because the idea is that they are bigger, stronger, superior to normal orcs and the first scene we get of one where it strangles the orc that got it out of it's mud-sack thing shows that well. Also, with no real explanation in the book (that i can recall) PJ had nothing to go off.

Also, it can be better not to see it sometimes. That which you don't see can often be scarier than that which you do.

As to Gandalf's magical appearance on the top of Orthanc, if Saruman is able to make him fly up vertically there isn't too much of a mystery as to how he got there!

The palantir though, I love the palantir. It looks exactly right and those clawed fingers of Saruman's curling around it - just looks wonderfully evil. The words though, I always had a weird sort of thought that Sauron spoke to a person looking into the palantir via some kind of telepathic connection.

Anyway, mostly I just liked the sequence. The destruction of the beautiful landscape of Isengard really was awful (in a good way) and made you see the horror industrialising can bring.

[mormegil]

The Uruk-hai discussion is interesting but really we are skipping ahead a bit. As we actually don't see the Uruks during this sequence.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What bothered me from the very first viewing was the contradiction between the orc's statement that the trees are strong, their roots go deep - and we see trees being pulled out of the earth, with very shallow roots! That did take me out of the story.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What bothered me from the very first viewing was the contradiction between the orc's statement that the trees are strong, their roots go deep - and we see trees being pulled out of the earth, with very shallow roots! That did take me out of the story.

that's because no orc (or any one else) actually says this in the book! it's another case of the scriptwriters making rods for their own backs when they add additional dialogue. the only time anything like this is mentioned is by gandalf in his poem in the letter read at the prancing pony. - "Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

[Boromir88]

I think it's the case that Tolkien does not show HOW they are 'born'. So it is not 'different' - just showing something that Tolkien glosses over?

Actually I think Tolkien makes it pretty clear that Orcs were bred like every other race...

For the Orcs had life and multplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar...~The Silmarillion-The Coming of the Elves.

In a letter to Mrs. Munby Tolkien states:

There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.~dated 21 March 1963

So, I think it's pretty clear that Tolkien wanted orcs to reproduce like Elves and Men. Though, I have no strong objection to showing Orcs coming out of mudpits. Just saying it's not how Tolkien envisioned orcs as multiplying.

[Lathriel]

Although the orc breeding isn't untill later I can't help but comment on it. That was actually the part that I liked the least of the whole FOTR movie. It just disturbed me. I thought it was completely uneccessary and the time they spent on that scene could have been put to better use later. (E.G showing more of Lothlorien)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kath

As to Gandalf's magical appearance on the top of Orthanc, if Saruman is able to make him fly up vertically there isn't too much of a mystery as to how he got there!

Not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean that Saruman flew Gandalf up the center of the tower and out a window, then to the 'pinnacle,' or do you mean that Gandalf was magically teleported through the rock to the top? Either way, we have a Saruman at least able to move man-sized objects some distance without touching them. Was this only due to his possession of Gandalf's staff? Note that this ability would be helpful if he were attacked by, say, large tree-like things...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What bothered me from the very first viewing was the contradiction between the orc's statement that the trees are strong, their roots go deep - and we see trees being pulled out of the earth, with very shallow roots!

Ahh! There it is; that's why it bothered me though I didn't see it until your post. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Essex

I think it's the case that Tolkien does not show HOW they are 'born'. So it is not 'different' - just showing something that Tolkien glosses over?

Essex, I'm with you on all of that. Just asking why PJ chose the mode that he did. What message/idea was he trying to convey? I could see him showing Saruman 'working in the lab' and then showing some orcs outside, chained in the sunlight. I think that it's called a montage, but maybe that would take too much time. Any thoughts?