why middle earth

[Glofin]

Well, HerenIstarion beat me to it. I agree with him. I know for certain in Western culture, not only just Norse, but in others, including Celtic cultures our world was called Middle Earth or something to that effect. The world of mortals was always seen as a world between worlds. We were not in the golden realms of the Gods, nor in the world of the dead, therefore we were in the middle. It is simply something all European peoples have in common. So to sum it up in two words I would say, Cultural Expression. It is the way we saw (or how some of us still do ) the world. It's that simple.

~ Glofin

[Elu Ancalime]

I find it very odd that nobody mentioned this! Well Gothmog did, but in a different way...

Geography?

Besides the historical and phililogical aspect, I think the easiest way to put it was, Middle-Earth, was roughly in the middle of the earth.

!!!

According to The Atlas of Middle-Earth, the general layout of Arda(Ambar anyway) went:

Aman was the Western continent.

Than Numenore was the Atlantic island in the western sea, but that took up little space.

Middle-Earth in the North and center of the world. Ranging from the Dor Daedlos (Forodwaith) that apparently touched the Northern boundry of Ekkaia, south the the giant-harad-peninsula-subcontinent-thing. (africa of Arda) but then in the southeast, i assume the lake where Almaren was and the Ringl mearged and created the Mediterranian-like sea. (as aforementioned, medi[middle], terra[earth]

Dark Land(s) [to the direct south when used specifically, but still in the center)

And the southern part of the land that was isolated from Middle-Earth was simply named Dark Land(s), and while originally all the Children were in the north-east of ME, the Numenoreans anchored their, for a short time anyway) So named Dark Land because there probably wasnt a large Children populace, although it appears their were mountains and forests and such. And since all the Fathers of Dwarves awoke in ME, their would be no dwarves.

Empty Lands

This continent is like the eastern counterpart of Aman. E of A offers:

A mysterious region mentioned only once by Tolkien. The Empty Lands are important because they apparently lay beyond the eastern boundaries of Middle-earth, and so give a vital clue to the structure of Arda.

The 'structure of Arda' is interesting. The only mentions of this land, are that there is a large mountain rang spanning in symmetry with the Pelori, and what looks like in size also. They are called the Walls of the Sun, and also the lands called the Burnt Lands, reffering to the fact that the Gates of Morning were nearby, and perhaps if the Sun 'set,' they it would heat the hill. The Atlas of Middle-Earth shows the Empty Lands as being completely symmetrical in geograpgy, at least closer to the coast. Even Everwhite (cant spell it in elvish from memory ) has a counterpart, named Kalamore, or Kalmore. And it supposedly means 'Sun-Rising Hill.

The 'Equator' of Middle-Earth seems to be called the Girdle of Arda, and runs through the two mountains. I wonder how in relation this affects ME.

So middle earth is in the geographic center of the middle of the earth, the flat part of it anyway.

So there's my reasoning(since hobbits and elves wouldnt know about Norse etc, they needed a reason too)

While Tolkien used Nore and OE to create words and such, taking on the fanatical point of view would be opposite. The Norse language would come from the languages of the Elder Days, unless they were sundered like the Druadain or something. If you asked an elf or man 'Why Middle-Earth?,' they wouldn't tell you 'because Mr Tolkien did this.....'
Even though it is a Norse term, the words 'Middle' and 'Earth' were not words used by one or a few cultures. A language would have to use the word middle, and since they all lived on some land that was big, Earth would be the word for it. I think its really just a matter of using the words together for an adjetive-noun-Proper Noun or something like that.

but I think it came in second to the inspiration from old english/old norse

Well i didnt say (or mean to imply) that it had nothing to do with Norse/OE, but that this was the former reasoning.
________
Extreme Vaporizers

[Gil-Galad]

the quick anwser without all this mumbo-jumbo would be


Why Not?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

So there's my objective reasoning(since hobbits and elves wouldnt know about Norse etc, they needed a reason too)

What you say makes sence, but knowing how much Tolkien uses old english and old Norse I find it hard to belive that he was sitting not knowing what to call these lands. As he is sitting looking at his map, suddenly it strikes him: What should I call this part of the earth (arda) wich lies in the middle, right between Aman and the empty lands. . Middleland. . .Encircling earth. . . Heureka! Middle Earth.

Of cours Tolkien would not call it middle earth if it was utter nonsence, (geographical) but I think it came in second to the inspiration from old english/old norse.

Miðgarðr(Midgård) ----->Middangeard -------->Middel-erde -----------> Middle-earth.

I have never seen anything objective yet and you post sertanly did not change that.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I should like to point out at this point that OE middangeard is recorded before the earliest stage of Scandinavian settlement in England, and a matter of centuries before the earliest written occurrence of ON midgarð, so it would be irresponsible to assume that the Norse word influenced the English one. If there was any influence of the Old Norse word upon its Old English counterpart it probably took place during the transition into Middle English, although I prefer to think of the two words as parallel yet separate forms. The suggestion that either developed from the other is tenuous indeed, and it is much more likely that they simply share a common ancestor in Primitive Germanic.

Since Tolkien's primary interest was in England, I would argue that he has used the English term rather than the Norse, although he does draw inspiration from Old Norse language and literature elsewhere in his writings. It is certainly interesting that such places as 'Middle-earth' and 'Mirkwood' appear in all of the Germanic languages of which we have an extensive record. Perhaps the mythology, like the languages, has a common ancestor, which seems to be what Tolkien was suggesting by the projection of these terms into the far past.

Elu Ancalime is right to point out that the inhabitants of Tolkien's Middle-earth would not have known Old English and Old Norse. However, that did not stop Tolkien from using words from those languages, adapting their spelling and writing them into the philology of the elven tongues. Perhaps the oldest name in the Silmarillion is Eärendil, which Tolkien first found in the Old English poem Crist I, but before it could be incorporated into his legends, he had to develop a complete etymology of the word in the Elven language of the time (Gnomish, I should think, in 1916). Certainly in the earlier development of the legendarium, Tolkien seems to have been trying to integrate his legends with the unrecorded early stages of those we know from the Kalevala, Snorra Edda, Sæmundar Edda, Widsið and other medieval sources. Tolkien regularly re-interpreted ancient Germanic mythology in terms of his own, but in 'Middle-earth' he had found a term so universal that it needed no alteration. This is particularly true of this term, since he first published a use of it in The Hobbit, which wears its influences very much on its sleeve.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I dont know when midgarð was first written, but it is assumed to have been used atleast since the 5th century. . . anyway The first reports of viking raids is in 787 and
middangeard is first used in 750. Given the little time in between the incedents and the fact that middangeard is used in Beowulf, clearly shows me that it is the same word.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't dispute that they are the same word, but it is very dangerous to imply that the Old English form has developed from Old Norse, particularly since Old English was a written language, and middangeard a recorded term even before the first recorded meeting between the two cultures. Since Old English and Old Norse are both descended from the postulated Primitive Germanic, it makes much more sense to assume that the same word developed in two different directions rather than jumping from one language to the other. Notwithstanding that objection, Old Norse literature is at its oldest nearly three-hundred years younger than that of Old English, which makes any such development nonsensical in any case.

In terms of cultural contact, we should not consider the coastal raids of the eighth century as major factors in the development of the English language, particularly minor skirmishes like Portland. Real cultural exchange does not take place between raiders and raided, but between two cultures living alongside one another, as in England after the Scandinavian settlement began in the latter half of the ninth century. It would be a poor historian indeed who projected all the results of centuries of Scandinavian conquest and settlement back to the first recorded Viking landfall in England.

That 'Middle-earth' is a term that existed throughout the Germanic world is reason enough for Tolkien to have used it, in fact I think that was the main reason for his use of it. However, although he mentions the Old Norse form of the word in his letters, he primarily describes it in terms of Old and Middle English, which suggests to me that this was his source for the term.

In terms of influence, the EME midden-erd shows signs of Scandinavian phonology, but the Old English certainly does not. There can be no doubt that they are descended from the same ancestor, but neither is the descendent of the other.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

In terms of cultural contact, we should not consider the coastal raids of the eighth century as major factors in the development of the English language, particularly minor skirmishes like Portland. Real cultural exchange does not take place between raiders and raided, but between two cultures living alongside one another, as in England after the Scandinavian settlement began in the latter half of the ninth century. It would be a poor historian indeed who projected all the results of centuries Scandinavian conquest and settlement back to the first recorded Viking landfall in England.

(this will be a bit off topic)

You seem to assume that there is a great differnce between the Vikings and the Scandinavian people who settled in England, but fact is that the Vikings mostley was normal people who allso participated in these raids. It was these folk who settled in England, Normandy and Vinland (Newfoundland and other parts of North America) The Vikings were not just pirates, but allso traders.

We seem to have agreed that it is the same word, but I have some last comments. Is it not so that the Anglo-Saxons originate frome the inhabitans of Saxony and Schleswig ? The latter was "danish" until 1864, Is this not where the first capital of Denmark was build. (Hedeby = Haithabu = town on the heat)
What I am saying that the inhabitans of England was partial descendants of the Jutes, is there not a chance that they could speak before crossing the North Sea?

In any case you a right, we are all Germanic tribes and our language clearly originate frome the same place.