Taur-in-Gaurhoth Scenarios you'd Like to See

[Cailín]

Wow, LMP, very thought out and interesting idea. Far more revolutionary than the idea I had in mind for my game. However, I do suppose a few problems might rise to the surface when testing this... The phantom has already pointed out most.

Essentially, your game is not really innocents against wolves anymore, but wizard against wizard. As soon as one of the wizards dies, whether this is because of the cleverness of their enemy, or the stubbornness of the innocent villagers - whom we all know enjoy to kill the gifted ones every now and then - the game is decided. The outcome of the game is entirely dependent on two people. This could be fun, I suppose, but a game is lost when one of the wizards suddenly misses a deadline or makes a minor slip up. Quite a responsibility, and I already lose my nerve when I’m a wolf or seer

Also, what happens when the evil wizard and good wizard both choose the same innocent to turn in one night? This is quite likely to happen - there are always people who catch everyone’s attention.

I suggest also that, should you wish to test this scenario, you make the night phases just a little bit longer than usual. The game looks like it is going to be even more intense and demanding than your average Tol-in-Gaurhoth game, and if one of the two wizards happens to live in a strange time zone, the game will already be decided before it has officially started. This could be prevented by making the night phase 36 or 48 hours even... If the game works out as it should, there would be too many gifted anyway to make this phase even remotely boring.

About the whole Shiriff thing, this could become especially confusing. Robbing a Shiriff of his gift is not so easily done, since there is always someone else involved.

Huhm, yeah, well, maybe you should just test this and see how it works out. ^^

Edit: I always cross post... bad habit.

[the guy who be short]

I'd like to add that the death of either Wizard would completely unbalance the game.

If the GW dies, especially early on, there's nobody to counter the continual spawning of new werewolves. The villagers are unable to win as, at best, they can lynch one wolf per day, with no consequence as the EW creates a new one each Night.

If the EW dies, the remaining werewolves have to work independently and thus their team falls apart completely.

I suggest that the lives of the Wizards be tied to one another - the death of one must result in the death of the other to keep the game balanced. This could happen in the following ways:

• Either wizard lynched.
• GW killed by wolves.

In addition, this would solve the problem of a Wizard finding out who the other Wizard is. If this were to happen, the consequence would be that one Wizard knows who the other is - and would most likely prolong his existence so as to preserve his own life. This could even develop into an interesting situation with both Wizards knowing each other's identities, but neither daring to strike. Conversely, once a Wizard knows who the other Wizard is, he could intentionally get one of them lynched if he thought the removal of both Wizards would favour his side.

If the wolves choose to kill the EW, he'd more or less have to tell them who he is, whether bluntly or not, to prevent his death. This could result in all the wolves knowing who the wizard is, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Then some of them could move over to the Good side and still know who the Evil Wizard is. We could see a situation where the identities of the two wizards are widely known, but to preserve equilibrium, nobody kills either of them.

If this were the case, I'd like to see the GW able to communicate with his side as well, in the same manner as the WWs with the EW - none of them knowing one another's identities, but able to communicate through the GW.

Anybody see any flaws?

EDIT: Ah, I see a flaw. If both wizards were to die, the gifteds on the Good Side could continue working independently. However, what of the wolves? Either the Mod takes over the EW duties, under the pretext that the wolves come together to decide who to kill, in wolf form, in the Night and are thus still oblivious concerning one another's identities; or they become a group, knowing one another's identities, under the pretext that the EW somehow did this magically...

[Firefoot]

I would say that in the event that the EW should die, the wolves would have to then know each others' identities.

It's starting to sound like a really interesting plan... I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work for what ever reason - too lopsided, two players with too much power over the game, etc. That would be the biggest problem that I can see, as others have already said - two players moving around pawns. With a new wolf spawning every night, it seems fairly likely that the wolves would win though. I think the villagers would almost have to hope that after two or three nights (seer, ranger or seer, ranger, hunter) the wizards would die, leaving them with fewer wolves to deal with.

It would certainly add a whole new dimension to the question of who, individually, can say they won - the wizards died early, oops, neither of them win; at least half the villagers changed roles at least once during the game, therefore in some way helping both sides - oops, none of them really won; and most of the remaining villagers are probably already dead... Moderator wins!

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

With a new wolf spawning every night, it seems fairly likely that the wolves would win though. I think the villagers would almost have to hope that after two or three nights (seer, ranger or seer, ranger, hunter) the wizards would die, leaving them with fewer wolves to deal with.

If at any point a wolf switches sides, they'll be able to tell the villager side all about their various inputs, who the EW forbade them to kill, any identities the EW may have revealed... That could help the Good and Gifteds.

One additional wolf per night, plus one innocent death, could be overkill though. Perhaps the EW could only create a wolf every second Night?

For this to work, I think we'd need the following rules:

It is not forbidden for wizards to declare to team members who the other members of a team are, i.e. EW can tell the wolves who the rest of them are, but then if any one were to switch back to the villager side, they would be able to tell them who the rest of the wolves are. So it's unwise... but could occasionally be necessary. Additionally, Wizards can lie to team members... imagine.

I think the Good Team (so it shall be called...) should be able to commnicate amongst Evil Team lines, that is, they all know who the GW is, and the GW can communicate with all of them or convey information to all of them.

I think this will be very interesting for quite a few reasons. There'll be a lot of backstabbing a treachery, and there'll be a lot of manipulation of others by the Wizards. Additionally, we'd see two distinct teams - Good and Evil - with a sort of dull neutral in the middle, trying to help the Good Team but always remaining doubtable.

Suggestion: If EW and GW choose the same person, that person dies.

The main problem I see is that people may feel like pawns, with the two main players being the Wizards. Personally I think it'll be immense fun.

[littlemanpoet]

Ooh! Ooh! I get to triple post, just like on WW!

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Moderator wins!

But of course! Don't you know, that's the whole idea?

If at any point a wolf switches sides, they'll be able to tell the villager side all about their various inputs, who the EW forbade them to kill, any identities the EW may have revealed... That could help the Good and Gifteds.

The EW never speaks directly to the werewolves, it's always through the moderator (or an assistant moderator ). And the message to the werewolves, should they choose to kill the EW, would be something like "The EW has overruled your choice; _______ is to be killed toNight." The werewolves are none the wiser, which would be frustrating for them, but after all, the EW knows best.....

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Good points. The wizards would be hand picked from a few who volunteer for the role, and who promise that they can be available for the kind of intensity the role requires.

Wouldn't this seriously limit the people who could be the wizards and therefore make the game way easier? Say five people signed up, two of them would have to be wizards, limiting the choices down to 2/5 and making it easier for the GW to choose. After the first couple of days there would be no doubt who the EW was.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by AbercrombieOfRohan

Wouldn't this seriously limit the people who could be the wizards and therefore make the game way easier? Say five people signed up, two of them would have to be wizards, limiting the choices down to 2/5 and making it easier for the GW to choose. After the first couple of days there would be no doubt who the EW was.

Good question! First you get your list of 16 to 30 players. Then you ask for those interested in the wizard roles to PM you. Then you PM them back telling them whether they're the wizards.

[Kuruharan]

The EW never speaks directly to the werewolves, it's always through the moderator (or an assistant moderator ). And the message to the werewolves, should they choose to kill the EW, would be something like "The EW has overruled your choice; _______ is to be killed toNight." The werewolves are none the wiser, which would be frustrating for them, but after all, the EW knows best

If the EW only does this once, well...I'm sure you can follow me here.

If the EW does this repeatedly, it utterly defeats the purpose of being werewolf.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I'd like to add that the death of either Wizard would completely unbalance the game.

Sorry I forgot to say this in the original idea post, but the wizards can only both die at the same time. Only a wizard can kill a wizard.

If the EW dies, the remaining werewolves have to work independently and thus their team falls apart completely.

Another good point I didn't see right away. If the EW dies, part of the curse is removed such that the werewolves know who each other are and can/must work amongst themselves. Darn, this is getting complex (but since when did that ever scare LMP away? )

I suggest that the lives of the Wizards be tied to one another - the death of one must result in the death of the other to keep the game balanced.

Precisely.

Either wizard lynched.

Nope. They can't be...successfully.

GW killed by wolves.

Nope again. Only a wizard can kill a wizard.

this would solve the problem of a Wizard finding out who the other Wizard is.

Actually, the way I see this working out is that the GW doesn't really mind revealing, because the EW won't want to take the GW out until EW has created enough werewolves to satisfy his/her strategy. Meanwhile, the GW will want to take out the EW as quickly as possible, so the EW will want to remain hidden for as long as possible.

If this were to happen, the consequence would be that one Wizard knows who the other is - and would most likely prolong his existence so as to preserve his own life. This could even develop into an interesting situation with both Wizards knowing each other's identities, but neither daring to strike. Conversely, once a Wizard knows who the other Wizard is, he could intentionally get one of them lynched if he thought the removal of both Wizards would favour his side.

Hmmm.... this is an interesting option, but I think it would tend to allow the game to become too unbalanced. The only way to maintain balance is for both wizards (so powerful) to be in, or out, of the game simultaneously.

If the wolves choose to kill the EW, he'd more or less have to tell them who he is, whether bluntly or not, to prevent his death. This could result in all the wolves knowing who the wizard is, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Then some of them could move over to the Good side and still know who the Evil Wizard is. We could see a situation where the identities of the two wizards are widely known, but to preserve equilibrium, nobody kills either of them.

Now, that is an interesting notion, too. But this is just as likely not to happen, rendering the equilibrium nil.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Essentially, your game is not really innocents against wolves anymore, but wizard against wizard. As soon as one of the wizards dies, whether this is because of the cleverness of their enemy, or the stubbornness of the innocent villagers - whom we all know enjoy to kill the gifted ones every now and then - the game is decided. The outcome of the game is entirely dependent on two people. This could be fun, I suppose, but a game is lost when one of the wizards suddenly misses a deadline or makes a minor slip up.

Good points. The wizards would be hand picked from a few who volunteer for the role, and who promise that they can be available for the kind of intensity the role requires.

The wizards cannot be killed by anyone but each other. Thus, if the evil wizard or lycanthropes try to kill the good wizard, they will be told that their kill was unsuccessful, and they'll know why. A wizard can be lynched, but it won't work. (hee hee, that would be fun to write ).

Also, what happens when the evil wizard and good wizard both choose the same innocent to turn in one night? This is quite likely to happen - there are always people who catch everyone’s attention.

Wow! Excellent question. I hadn't thought of that. Inevitably, one wizard will PM the moderator before the other, and first dibs wins, I think. Unless someone can think of a better rule for that; then the wizard who came in second would have to pick over again.

I suggest also that, should you wish to test this scenario, you make the night phases just a little bit longer than usual. The game looks like it is going to be even more intense and demanding than your average Tol-in-Gaurhoth game, and if one of the two wizards happens to live in a strange time zone, the game will already be decided before it has officially started. This could be prevented by making the night phase 36 or 48 hours even... If the game works out as it should, there would be too many gifted anyway to make this phase even remotely boring.

Hee hee! I think I could work with that, although I think a lot of villagers would get really antsy, waiting for the new Day to begin.

Oh, I'm thinking also that the good wizard might not be allowed to scry until Night 3, just to make sure that there are three werewolves to start the game off.

About the whole Shiriff thing, this could become especially confusing. Robbing a Shiriff of his gift is not so easily done, since there is always someone else involved.

Yes, I don't think Shirriffs belong in a Dueling Wizards game.