Hobbits the chosen people

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, before anyone else stomps on Morsul's theory, let us consider the question that he has asked with more care.

It has been persuasively argued on this forum many times, based on Tolkien's own writings, that Eru could foresee all that would come to be.

It is also generally accepted that Hobbits have a particular resistance to corruption occasioned by a desire for power. And this is displayed in the singular resistance to the Ring exhibited by those Hobbits who came into contact with it (with the exception of Smeagol, who is an anomaly in this regard).

Moreover, Gandalf, an emissary of the Valar (and through their delegated powers of Eru) makes clear to us his view that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, that it was meant to come into Frodo's possession and that Frodo had been appointed to the task of Ringbearer.

Putting these factors all together, is it not at least possible that Morsul is on to something here? I think that it is. It seems to me to be perfectly within the bounds of credibility that Eru specifically created a race with the particular qualities that Hobbits display because he foresaw that there would be a need for exceptional members of that race to bring those qualities to bear in order to bring about the destruction of the Ring and the downfall of Sauron.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

It is also generally accepted that Hobbits have a particular resistance to corruption occasioned by a desire for power. And this is displayed in the singular resistance to the Ring exhibited by those Hobbits who came into contact with it (with the exception of Smeagol, who is an anomaly in this regard).

Actually so too do the dwarves have a resistance to a desire for power. And they're little people too.

Frankly, given all the hype about The Shire being the disappearing England that Tolkien knew and loved, I find it profoundly hysterical to think of Hobbits/the English as the saviours of the human race. The hairy foot's burden. Too laughable to think on, really.

*whistles away in the other direction, and imagines Squatter humming "Rule Britannia"*

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Saucerpan Man

Putting these factors all together, is it not at least possible that Morsul is on to something here? I think that it is. It seems to me to be perfectly within the bounds of credibility that Eru specifically created a race with the particular qualities that Hobbits display because he foresaw that there would be a need for exceptional members of that race to bring those qualities to bear in order to bring about the destruction of the Ring and the downfall of Sauron

Now, we have two different issues in here. Did Eru mean to create creatures that would be hard to corrupt? Probably. Were the hobbits "the chosen people"? Absolutely not. Now, there's a difference between both questions and not a slight one.

It is logical to think that Eru knew that the Middle Earth would need creatures of strong will, even if coming along with weaker bodies (or at least, not as suitable for battle). But we see that there is a myriad of creatures, the hobbits not necesarily being the most uncorruptible. Therefore, even if Bilbo was meant to find the ring and Frodo to carry it, there is no evidence pointing at the hobbits being the "chosen ones". Keep in mind that Morsul did not say that Bilbo and Frodo were brought to life and found the ring thanks to Eru's will (which I would have agreed with) but that his concept was that the Hobbits (all of them) were a people chosen by Eru to become the saviours of the Middle Earth.

And as Saucerpan man said, Bilbo and Frodo were exceptional hobbits, not at all your average sacoville-baggins folks

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Actually so too do the dwarves have a resistance to a desire for power. And they're little people too.

They were resistant to domination, but they had a weakness for gold and the like and were therefore potentially corruptible.

Originally Posted by Farael

Morsul did not say that Bilbo and Frodo were brought to life and found the ring thanks to Eru's will (which I would have agreed with) ...

Yet, without Hobbits, there would be no Bilbo or Frodo ...

"Chosen people" may be an inappropriate term, but I really don't think that Morsul's theory, or at least aspects of it, should simply be dismissed out of hand.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

but I really don't think that Morsul's theory, or at least aspects of it, should simply be dismissed out of hand.

As a side note I was not dismissing Morsul's theory, rather I was pointing out a spot where I disagreed and gave my thoughts as to why Hobbits aren't a chosen people so to speak. I believe that Bilbo and Frodo were chosen to have the ring but this comes from the fact that they happen to be Hobbits. Something of note is that Bilbo and Frodo were considered odd hobbits and their behavior was not in the norm with general hobbits.

I realize that some of the general hobbit traits were a definite aid to Frodo and Bilbo, such as their lack of a desire for power, but other non-hobbit traits helped them out as well, namely their sense of adventure. Now what I am saying is that their are traits that helped them but their are traits that would have helped them out that other races posses that hobbits do not. Such as the farsight of Elves and Numenoreons, or the strength and endurance of dwarves. So while the best fit for ring bearers came from hobbits I don't believe them to be the chosen people.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Saucerpan Man

"Chosen people" may be an inappropriate term, but I really don't think that Morsul's theory, or at least aspects of it, should simply be dismissed out of hand.

And that is exactly why I divided my answer into two parts. I disagree with the notion of the Hobbits being the "Chosen People" but I do believe that from the creatures of Middle Earth, they were, as mormegil said the "best fit".

Originally Posted by The Saucerpan Man

Yet, without Hobbits, there would be no Bilbo or Frodo ...

And then perhaps the ring would have been found by a really wise yet uncorruptible elf, or a strong willed and benevolent Dwarf. As the hobbits are not a "perfect fit" for the adventure, one could think that Eru chose, from the creatures he had created, the most able for the task in hand and gave them some 'unusual' traits to help them along. Perhaps if the hobbits had not been created, Eru would have chosen an elve (who has most of the physical characteristics to endure the voyage) and given him an unusual lack of interest in power as a mean to achieve his goals. THAT is what I argue when I say that the Hobbits were not the "chosen people" as it was only two hobbits with some unusual traits who were able to find and carry the ring to its destruction. Even then, at the last second Frodo succumbed to the Ring, and some intervention by luck or Eru was needed for the ring to be destroyed.

Edit: Posted at the same time as Bethberry

"Chosen people' is a term often used in regard to the Israelites and the belief that they were specially chosen of God to carry on a unique Covenant with Him.

This reminds me. "Chosen People" is even more of a wrong term is used as when referring to the Israelites. They were never meant to save human kind (That is more of a Christian perspective, as according to their faith Chrsit was sent to the world to save our kind) but rather to be the priests of G'd. They were supposed to keep alive the traditions of G'd Himself and pray to him in the most befitting way. Those who wanted to follow their traditions would be accepted but the Israelites were not meant to change the world.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did Eru then create the Hobbits after monitoring Sauron's (not Melkor, but Sauron's) mentality and designs? That's certainly different from foresight. I think it's also pretty implausible.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

"Chosen people" may be an inappropriate term, but I really don't think that Morsul's theory, or at least aspects of it, should simply be dismissed out of hand.

Now there's an unfair--and uncharacteristic of you--bit of characterising those who simply apply a quite legitimate and completely allowable (in terms of debate and discussion) act, to treat the topic critically, to question it, to play devil's--Sauron's?--advocate. All quite allowable, old chap, and really very unfair of you to imply that they haven't fairly considered the topic.

"Chosen people' is a term often used in regard to the Israelites and the belief that they were specially chosen of God to carry on a unique Covenant with Him.

And it is a prevalent aspect of folk culture in England to think of the English as the new chosen people. Did Tolkien ascribe to this belief--or work unconsciously within its parameters--when he set out to create a mythology for England? "Never in the history of mankind ..." Hoot.

Frankly, I think Morsul's whistling is fairly close to my laughing. My hat's off to him really. Or, rather, I'll borrow the hat off Squatter's new avatar and raise it to him.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Farael

Now, we have two different issues in here. Did Eru mean to create creatures that would be hard to corrupt? Probably. Were the hobbits "the chosen people"? Absolutely not. Now, there's a difference between both questions and not a slight one.

It is logical to think that Eru knew that the Middle Earth would need creatures of strong will, even if coming along with weaker bodies (or at least, not as suitable for battle). But we see that there is a myriad of creatures, the hobbits not necesarily being the most uncorruptible. Therefore, even if Bilbo was meant to find the ring and Frodo to carry it, there is no evidence pointing at the hobbits being the "chosen ones". Keep in mind that Morsul did not say that Bilbo and Frodo were brought to life and found the ring thanks to Eru's will (which I would have agreed with) but that his concept was that the Hobbits (all of them) were a people chosen by Eru to become the saviours of the Middle Earth.

And as Saucerpan man said, Bilbo and Frodo were exceptional hobbits, not at all your average sacoville-baggins folks

I think that hobbits were the chosen people. They do not appear any time before the Third Age, and seem to be for no purpose whatsoever. Yet Frodo still failed in destroying the Ring at the end of the book. If Iluvatar really wanted a hardy race, (and if Aule was capable of creating the Dwarves) then shouldn't he have made something a bit better?

[Morsul the Dark]

Yes that is true however He(Frodo) gave out until the very end would anyone else have been able to do that? Besides Think about it what if Frodo had never been tempted by the ring would he have been almighty or the ring just not srong at all you see the ring versus Frodo is a battle between two of the strongest wills in middle earth Eru could've have come down himself and destroyed the ring then he wouldn't have to send anyone. He instead sent mortal beings which no matter how strong-willed have flaws

[Goldberry101]

Hobbits the chosen people? I really don't think so. Most of them are just stay at home little peace loving folks. Sure, there's some amazing ones among them, but aren't there some amazing ones among all the races?