"Critters of Moria"

[Lalwendë]

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

[Farael]

Perhaps when the Valar were created more than one became evil, Morgoth being just the most powerful one? Or perhaps that phrase means to say that they were there before Sauron went to Arda... perhaps they were there when Arda was created before the Valar and Ainur inhabited it?
Or maybe those creatures were there before Sauron was corrupted by Morgoth and therefore becoming the evil Sauron?

I really don't know, but I was pondering those options. I would think that the second one seems the most likely, as Arda was created yet we don't know if all the Valar and Ainur went there right when it was created.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Lal

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

I believe the same is true of Ungoliant. As for fitting with Eru... I'm not sure how it works. I would presume they would be outside his plans. Certainly they aren't as powerful as him, as is shown by Morgoth's defeat of Ungoliant (with a little backup).

[Boromir88]

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

Well, either Gandalf's wrong. Which is quite possible, as we are aware of what Tolkien feels about his characters, and what his mind is. He uses Treebeard as an example, and says that Treebeard's a character in his story, that's not his own thoughts. So, Gandalf here is speculating, and his speculation is wrong.

Or, perhaps he means they're older than Sauron, as in his time on Middle-earth. They were there in Moria long before Sauron first set foot on Middle-earth?

Or, it's what tgwbs has said.

[Kuruharan]

Or, perhaps he means they're older than Sauron, as in his time on Middle-earth. They were there in Moria long before Sauron first set foot on Middle-earth?

I think this is a pretty reasonable explanation.

[Captain Grishnahk]

Since this thread is discussing the several "critters" of middle earth. I was wondering if Wargs are the same as wolves. In the movies they were more of a hienna type thing, but does Tolkien ever give a discription of them? And how did Saruman use them? I thought they were mostly around the Misty Mountains.

-Cap

[Noxomanus]

First of all, the word is 'hyaena' not 'hienna'.

Secondly, Isengard lay at the southern reaches of the Misty Mountains so I suppose Wargs could be there too. Gandalf (and if I'm not mistaken,Merry and Pippin') mention that there were wolves in Isengard's armies. It was thus perfectly possible for Saruman to send out Wargs (which we can assume those wolves were.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Captain Grishnahk

Since this thread is discussing the several "critters" of middle earth. I was wondering if Wargs are the same as wolves. In the movies they were more of a hienna type thing, but does Tolkien ever give a discription of them? And how did Saruman use them? I thought they were mostly around the Misty Mountains.

-Cap

Warg derives from Old Norse 'Vargr' meaning wolf - therefore the wargs of Middle-earth were like wolves, not hyenas (though they were larger & more intelligent).

Clearly 'Warg' is Tolkien's translation of the equivalent Middle-earth word (though why he would create a modern English equivalent of an Old Norse word to translate a Middle-earth term, rather than just using the Old Norse or the modern English word is another question).

'Translator Conceit' again....