The Halls of Mandos

[Arathiriel]

Can someone tell me which races of ME went to the Halls of Mandos after death?

I was under the impression that is where all the races went after death: ie Elves (when one actually died), Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits but now I am not so sure...

Are the Halls for ALL the races of ME or are they only for the Elves?

Thanks!

[Tirned Tinnu]

*blinking* Gee, I think it was only Elves...but wait, if I remember correctly the Dwarves thought they had a little hallway set up there apart from the Elves, where they'd meet Aule (was it Aule? Eru, I feel rusty.) and get a chance at working with him to rebuild Arda after the last battle.
And I ask about Beren, for if I'm not mistaken, when Galadriel (ouch! what was I thinking of, Luthien, ty for the correction) pleaded for Beren she cried and sang for Mandos, (But I guess everybody stopped to listen.) and Beren's soul tarried or was held in a sort of waiting place, and I don't really have my copy of the Sil here to check out. (Stuck at work again!)
Buy me a clue, anyone?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

I belive you are correct Tinnu. The Dwarves were sent to Aule after they died. There they waited until the rebuilding of Arda. Men and Hobbits had "The gift of Eru" I.e. Death. Men went to Eru after they died. I'm not aware of much more than that. The elves were the only race to go to the halls of mandos.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Dwarin Thunderhammer ]

[burrahobbit]

It was Luthien that sang to Mandos.

As to the original, all of the free peoples go to Mandos, at least for a little while.

[Mattius]

So the gift of Men was that they would meet Eru?

[Kuruharan]

Theoretically. However, the phrase "Gift of Men" usually just refers to death itself.

[Arathiriel]

Thanks, guys!

The reason I asked this question is because I wrote a fic where I assumed 7 of the 9 members of the Fellowship were reunited together in the Halls of Mandos and someone who reviewed my story said that the Halls were only for the Elves...

Until someone can show me where Tolkein established the Halls of Mandos as place only for the Elves after death, I am going to assume that all races went there after death including Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

Elves went to Mandos until they were ready to reincarnate, which can be a long time or a short time, depending on how tainted the soul of the elf in question is. Men went to Mandos on their way out of Arda, they generally didn't stay there long at all, just long enough to walk through, I would imagine. Boromir was certainly gone before any of the others died. Dwarves think that they go to a part of Mandos set aside for them until the world is destroyed in the final battle, when they will aid Aule to remake the world.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Frodo Baggins]

The halls of Mandos are referred to as the Halls of Awaiting. Both Thorin and Theoden referred to the 'Halls of Awaiting' just brfore they died. Therefore, men and dwarves must go there too.
Where do Hobbits go when they die?

[burrahobbit]

Well, considering that hobbits are men, I would think that they go to Mandos for a little while.

[Arathiriel]

Hmmmmm...

The Hall of Mandos = Purgatory?

I am not Catholic but that sounds like what Tolkien was going for here by making the Halls a place of waiting...

Interesting...

[Mattius]

A place of waiting for what though? If there is no answer perhaps Tolkien is just showing that nobody knows what waits in the afterlife and it is quite inappropriate to guess or make it up in fantasy writing.

[Frodo Baggins]

The Halls of Mandos from what I read in LOTR and the Sil is wher ethe souls of dead men, elves, hobbits, and dwarves until "the world is renewed' as Theoden said. The Valaquents said that when the world is renewed, men will participate in a new Music of the Ainur.

[burrahobbit]

Mandos is not Purgatory, it is Mandos. Elves hang out there until their spirits are mended, Dwarves stay until the end of the world, Men just pass through on their way out of Arda.

[Nils]

I would call The Halls of Mandos an "Elven Purgatory". Manwe could delay the restoration "if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice aginst any other person among the living."*

*From the second Glorfindel Essay in "The Peoples of Middle Earth".

Kuruharan,

I believe Eru's gift was Man's soul was not bound to Arda. Even Elves died, but only men could pass through the Halls.

[Suldaledhel]

Just to add to the "Eru's Gift" concept (I know, I couldn't resist), Iluvatar's gift to men was that they would not be tied to the earth as were the spirits of the Elves. Eru considered this to be a gift, not having to witness the terrible atrocities that would be committed to the planet in ages to come, as would the Elves and the Valar--who would remain until the themes of Arda had played out fully.

[Nils]

Eru considered this to be a gift, not having to witness the terrible atrocities that would be committed to the planet in ages to come

I don't know how good a view of the earth the Elves get from the Blessed Lands.

Would the Dwarves being locked into the Halls of Mandos until the end time be an equivalent gift?

[Artanis]

Well as to the Men controversy, I think that they went to "The Great Beyond until the world is remade better than it was before, and that is the true Gift, while Death, as the Gift is more commonly associated with, is mearly a path that Men take to this remaking. Perhaps they will be born again into the world that the Dwarves remake?

[Kuruharan]

I believe Eru's gift was Man's soul was not bound to Arda.

According to the strictest definition in the mythology, that's exactly what death is.

Even Elves died

Only Luthien and Arwen actually died, in the strictest sense of the word. In the Sil it says, "For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject)...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence the may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world...Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."

[emphasis mine]

[Nils]

Thanks for the clarification and the quotes. Even using the quotes, it easy to understand how someone could misunderstand what is meant by the term 'death' in respect to Tolkien's Mythology.

[Knight of Gondor]

You guys must be using some supplementary material (Oh! Supplementary! Two angles that equal more than a 90° angle! Sorry everyone...I'm gearing up for the PSAT...back to business) when you speak of the Halls of Mandos. I hope this topic isn't too old, because I had some questions about that, and I've already read the Silmarillion.

I know it was said that "The Fates of Men and Elves are apart" but I think that surely they would all meet and dwell in peace when Eru remakes the world, right? They go to the Halls of Waiting until then, or at least, the men do. Where else do you find information about Tolkien's equivalent to Heaven?

[Galorme]

No-one knows what will happen to the Elves when the world ends, but they don’t go to the same place as the Elves. Men sing with the Valar in the final music, but elves are not there. Personally I think they are too "real", too embedded in the world. When Eru said "Ea!" the world became, and the elves were linked to it. But men were not as linked to the Music as elves are. So what happens when the world goes cuplup? Sorry guys, but so do the elves. he he that’s not a fact or anything just food for thought.


Ohohoh coolness i think the Orcs go to Mandos too. Freed from their twisted bodies their spirits return to Mandos and heal, slowly, until they are re-incarnated as Elves again. wow I will add that to my Elforc story if i ever get round to writing it.

[Westerly Wizard]

Indeed no one knows what will really happen at the end of the world, it is only prophecy, and a varied one at that.

But to touch on a few things earlier in the thread, Suldaledhel said that Eru considered the death of men a gift; this is not correct. It is the elves who consider death a gift, and it is called the "Gift of Iluvatar" because the story is elf-centered, and they are at times jealous of it. However, it is not a "doom" as it might be called by men either, as can be seen in the death of Aragorn and others, and in the idea that in the Timeless Halls they will no longer suffer the grief of Arda.

Also, it was discussed earlier that Dwarves go to the Halls of Mandos in hall set apart by Aule after they die. However this is given only as the "belief" of the dwarves; the elves held that the dwarves returned to stone after their death, which although also wrong, would have the same validity as the dwarves' belief.

In Letter 212 Tolkien writes, "And of the fate that Iluvatar has set upon the children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it." This is given as the actual fate of dwarves, rather than just the opinions of beings who aren't in a position to know it.

Ultimately, it makes the most sense that Dwarves would be removed from Arda after their death. They die naturally like men, so it would be assumed that their spirits are mortal in the entire Tolkien idea of the word: they only live in Arda while incarnated. Also, in Letter 154 Tolkien writes of the Hobbits and Gimli passing to the Undying Lands, and then says that "cannot abid for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." Although Gimli is not explicitly included in they, he is definitely included in the antecedent to "they."

[Aiwendil]

Oh! Supplementary! Two angles that equal more than a 90° angle!

Actually, if I recall correctly, supplementary angles are two that add up to exactly 180 degrees. Complementary angles add up to exactly 90.

I know it was said that "The Fates of Men and Elves are apart" but I think that surely they would all meet and dwell in peace when Eru remakes the world, right? They go to the Halls of Waiting until then, or at least, the men do. Where else do you find information about Tolkien's equivalent to Heaven?

As Galorme said, no one's really sure what happens to Elves after the end of the world. The matter is much discussed in Morgoth's Ring, particularly in the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth". There Finrod and Athrabeth, a human of Beor's house, argue over which fate is worse: that of humans, who spend only a brief time in the world, or that of Elves, who face the possibility of a final oblivion. Each one sees the other as more fortunate.

One possibility that is suggested is that following the end of the world, there will be a new earth in which the positions of humans and Elves are, in one sense, reversed; humans will be at home in that world, while Elves will "seek elsewhither".

[Galorme]

wow i expected more of a response to my proposal of the mass death of all the elves at the end of the world. Ah well, i am sure angles will do you more good in the real world. Providing your not an elf.

[Artanis]

Personally, I think that finall entropy of one's race is a really depressing thought... However, if you have drunk your fill from the cup of life, would final and complete death might be a rest that you would want to have...However, the two most beautiful Elves in the whole of their history (Tinuvial and Arwen) both passed from the circles of the world. That probibly means that they will be there when Illuvitar remakes the world. I would say that was a great thing for us mortals...

[Knight of Gondor]

Ohohoh coolness i think the Orcs go to Mandos too. Freed from their twisted bodies their spirits return to Mandos and heal, slowly, until they are re-incarnated as Elves again. wow I will add that to my Elforc story if i ever get round to writing it

Your WHAT? That sounds suspuciously like the story idea I mentioned...and I'll have you know it's trademarked! Look it up on one of these other forums. Something about a story someone else wrote. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Actually, if I recall correctly, supplementary angles are two that add up to exactly 180 degrees. Complementary angles add up to exactly 90.

Uh-oh. I get the sinking feeling that you are right! Well, go easy on me, I just took the PSAT. (I mean just took it. Like, today.)

[Galorme]

Your story??? I haven't actually written my story, and it wasn't actually a story more a dream. And it wasn't about Orcs going to mandos i just made that up. It was about orcs that escaped when the elves first awoke and met up with Avari and because gooder and it has a good ending and go find it on the old topics.

Orcs going to Mandos is the logical conclusion i supose lots of people have thought of it.

[busybee]

I wonder if the halls of Mandos ever get crowded with all the Elves Orc Dwarves Men whatever coming there......?????Maybe thats why they all live for really long so that when dead people go to Mandos and wait 'Halls of Awaitng' by the time others have come they have already gone on to wherever.....this is just a randomthought.

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