Who delivered the final blow?

[bilbo_baggins]

Well, I'm pretty sure I agree with you Farael, in so far as Isildur's was the last actual physical harm done to Sauron before he vanished, so that is the truly final (last, ending, none coming after) blow. But it is more likely that Elendil or Gil-galad gave the most damaging blow or vicious wound, that counted the most to the destruction of Sauron. I don't agree that Sauron was as incapacitated as you think. If Elendil was capable of nearly killing Sauron with a final blow, then why not his son? I believe that Sauron was weakened after his epic struggle against the Kings of Elves and Men, but no-one should discount the fact that Isildur was a pure Numenorean, and descended from Elvish blood like his father. He could very well have seriously harmed Sauron all by his onesy. He Aragorn's ancestor after all, and who can deny his strength of arms?

To Eomer of the Rohirrim: I have always had a pet theory that when Sauron poured his power into the Ring, he drained himself. When the Ring was taken from him, it would have been as if you had almost killed him. He then needed time to regain strength and recover. That is why in LOTR, it is more important than ever to keep the ring from Sauron because it would have a cumulative effect and give him more power than at The Last Alliance. So yes, soon after the Ring was made, you could have taken the Ring from Sauron and then watched PJ's pretty fireworks (IMO).

[Farael]

But it is more likely that Elendil or Gil-galad gave the most damaging blow or vicious wound, that counted the most to the destruction of Sauron.

Probably, but sticking to the question, which was "who delivered the final blow?" we have to say Isidur.

I don't agree that Sauron was as incapacitated as you think. If Elendil was capable of nearly killing Sauron with a final blow, then why not his son?

Actually, I was aknowledging what others had said. I believe that, while Elendil and Gil-Galad weakened Sauron he still had some fight left on him, until Isidur cut the finger off. Still, I think he might have been at least temporarily incapacitated, as cutting one finger off is not as easy as it sounds :P

I do agree with you that Sauron was drained after making the ring and therefore was forced out of his physical body.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Farael

Probably, but sticking to the question, which was "who delivered the final blow?" we have to say Isidur.

No we don't. The truth would be then, as silly as it sounds, Gollum. I say this because it is fairly well established that Sauron, after the ring was destroyed, would not return and essentially die because he would be more or less powerless. So Gollum delievered the final blow.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by mormegil

No we don't. The truth would be then, as silly as it sounds, Gollum. I say this because it is fairly well established that Sauron, after the ring was destroyed, would not return and essentially die because he would be more or less powerless. So Gollum delievered the final blow.

Actually, we are talking of a specific battle, not overall... and he was defeated in that battle. We agree that 'someone' gave a last blow to defeat Sauron on that battle, right?

[Roa_Aoife]

I guess to sort of restate what Farael is saying: holding a physical body takes a great deal of energy. It's about fighting entropy, which is the natural desire of all matter to be evening spread through out the universe. The fight against entropy is why we require things like food and water, etc. It takes energy.

Now Sauron, being one of the Maiar, had enough power on his own initially to hold a physical form with out any help or energy source. However, when he made the Ring, he poured almost all of his power into it and used it as his energy source, if you will. With out this energy source, he no longer had the power to fight the entropy, and his physical form vanished, like a high energy star turning to a black hole or going nova. So it was the loss of the ring that "killed" him, not the previous blows.

While I do think that Elendil and Gil-galad set up Sauron and weakened him, giving Isildur the chance to remove the ring, I don't think they "killed" him. It isn't like Isildur ran up and yelled, "Finders, Keepers!" and took the ring. He had some honor still at that point. I'm certain there was a strugle involved. As bilbo_baggins, Isildur was a warrior, a highly skilled one. That should be taken into account.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting. Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

[Eonwe]

I agree (probably, i haven't read all the posts :sheepish: ) with most in that there is really no way to tell. first you have to define what actually 'the final blow' looks like. what does 'throwing Sauron down' mean? then you must wade through the Morass of Contradiction, and deside which book you like better.

all in all, i think there is no way to tell. but i will stick with my original image of isildur. so many original images (ei, legolas ) have been wrecked by teh movies, i don't want to lose another one.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting.

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?

Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What if Sauron accidentally dropped the Ring—would that have killed him? Busting out the reductio ad absurdum...

Take this quote from Johnny T. himself.

"Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron." (from a letter)

Admittedly, this does not necessarily entail, but it certainly does imply that Gilgalad and Elendil slew Sauron. The way it's worded does suggest this.

The final blow I take to mean that blow which finally broke Sauron's body.

Oh, and by the way: I'm just guessing that the Kings stabbed Sauron all over his body. It's true that there is no explicit textual evidence to support that but I liked the phrase so that's why I typed it.

[Lindolirian]

For the argument that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand after he had been vanquished, I found a quote of Elrond's (an eye-witness, you know... very useful)

Isildur took it... But few marked what Isildur did.

I have a feeling that in a campaign to destroy the Enemy of all the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, the completion of such a huge undertaking would be pretty well marked by more than a few. My point is that in taking the Ring, Isildur did not do anything spectacular, but was being discrete after the battle was already won and snatched it from a dead hand.
Now to decide between Elendil and Gil-Galad is a tougher choice. Al I can come up with is that Tolkien keeps mentioning Elendil last... of course that really could mean nothing at all, but in the event of a toss-up, I'll let it decide for me.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Farael

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?



You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

That was just an example.

About swords holding power, I doubt Isildur's blade was a shoddy piece of steel. Also, from what I have read, Narsil was extremely well crafted and wasn't forged with any magical spells or objects. Besides, at that point he(Isildur) wouldn't care about dropping his sword or picking up his father's blade, he would just be angry that his father died and he would stab the weakened Sauron repeatedly until he(Sauron) was dead, possibly continuing even after Sauron had died. Looking on Isildur's ego and temper, the only reason he would pick up the hilt-shard of Narsil and cut off Sauron's finger was if Sauron was dead.

Hey, if a dog's teeth can subdue Sauron, surely a sword held by a prince can do the same, if not more.

Also, to everyone who says that Sauron wasn't dead until the ring was destroyed, that statement is composed of ********. If someone loses their body due to, say, multiple stab wounds, they die. If someone loses their body due to old age, they die. Sauron had a body(two in fact) and lost them, so he died. Notice that when he was a spirit he couldn't do anything whatsoever. That doesn't sound like an ainur in pure form to me. This is just my reasoning and I apologize if it offends you.