What if??

[ManofDale]

Smaug had an influence to cause greed in others like Bilbo if you recall who was found in awe of all his horde. Also the Master was subject to "dragon disease" which I can only say is greed and he died out in the desert. I think Smaug would able to overpower the One Ring as he sees it as just another trinket, like the Arkenstone etc.

[Legolas]

Tolkien wrote about 'evil' beings and their allegiance to Sauron. As part of Morgoth's force, creatures like orcs, trolls, and dragons could refuse Sauron's command and still maintain allegiance to their original 'commander' Morgoth. This does not mean they would, necessarily, since we see loads of orcs on Sauron's side.

Smaug could've been used by Sauron. Durin's Bane would've been a more difficult situation, but as greedy as Smaug was, I don't think he would've required much persuasion to join Sauron's army.

As for the Ring not fitting Smaug's finger - why wouldn't it? Surely you don't think that Sauron, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all wore the same ring size!

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Legolas

As for the Ring not fitting Smaug's finger - why wouldn't it? Surely you don't think that Sauron, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all wore the same ring size!

While I said that in a bit of jest, no I do not think that they all wore the same ring size however it is reasonable to assume that they were of a similar size and Sauron probably the largest finger so that the ring would at least fit on the smaller hand. However with Smaug I just don't see it fitting though this obviously isn't the actual topic.

Legolas, I like your point about the control of creatures. However, while I agree that Sauron had great control over many of the more mindless species such as orcs and trolls, dragons are shown to be much more willful and independent. Hence Glaurung being sent with an army and then occupying the territory essentially under Morgoth's command but under his own counsel. Therefore I don't think Smaug would answer to Sauron. I think he would be a detriment and cause problems on his own but would not obey Sauron's will per se. As stated earlier Sauron could not seem to control the 'greater' evil beings ie. Ungolian and the Balrog. The same would logically apply to Smaug.

[Legolas]

Nothing translates directly to Smaug not obeying Sauron. Glaurung followed Morgoth's order. The fact that he used his own 'counsel' is an even greater asset - he can obey the commands of Sauron, and think further for himself to act in situations where Sauron isn't present to give explicit directions.

The dragons of the Third Age were weak in comparison to the dragons of the First Age. Smaug wasn't exactly the most cunning being either, as we see in The Hobbit. He'd be dealing with Sauron. Sauron has displayed his intelligence several times over the history we have...he wouldn't have simply barged into the Lonely Mountain and began barking orders at Smaug like a mule pulling a plow or anything.

It would have been cunning - one of Sauron's strength is his mental perception. Even Saruman fell to his mental strength, and that was from a distance. In the (unlikely, I think) event that Smaug was opposed to joining Sauron's army in a very direct role in return for benefits, it still would've been easy to pull him into the same trap Saruman fell into.

We don't know that Durin's Bane would refuse Sauron's command - we just know that the balrog would have an easier time if he wanted to do his own thing. We don't have an example of Sauron being defied the balrog, so the assumption that the balrog would is completely unfounded. I also think the point is taken to the extreme - when we think of the balrog joining Sauron's forces, it seems that many take it as the balrog becoming Sauron's mindless servant. This would certainly not be the case. Why would Sauron waste a balrog's strength and intelligence as a mindless fighter? Durin's Bane - a creature capable of killing Gandalf, or at least exhausting him to the point of death - would have been almost a second-in-command should he join Sauron.

As for Sauron not being able to control Ungoliant - who could? Even Morgoth had difficulty with Ungoliant.

Sauron still used Smaug, Durin's Bane, and Shelob indirectly with cunning. Obviously Sauron fell in the end, but from a military standpoint, he was the victor for much of the war. Until the unforseeable adventures of Gandalf, Bilbo, and Thorin's company, Smaug was in a strategic position to hold the dwarves and men of the north from advancing east or south to aid the elves and men. Durin's Bane destroyed an entire dwarven colony. Shelob was well-placed as a guardian of Mordor's western boundary.

How narrow were the defeats of these three? The fight against Smaug would've been hopeless without the small hole in his armor; Durin's Bane would've been a match for any other single force in Middle-earth save Gandalf, whom he still removed from the equation until Eru's intervention; Frodo and Sam didn't exactly dominate Shelob.

[ohtatyaro]

By the way, would be interesting to learn what become of Shelob in fourth age/ I mean, she alone of the three would-be-allies survived Sauron's fall. How was she dealt with in Aragorn's kingdom - or did they just stop caring about her, like, let her live up there, we don't go there anyways?

[Noxomanus]

I think the Ring would have no problem with going to a Dragon. The real reason for this not happening in The Hobbit was because Tolkien obviously hadn't thought of that yet As for a canonical reason, Smaug was a sedentary being and perhaps the Ring thought the mobile Bilbo a better means of getting to Sauron.

Seeing how Dragons allready were powerful, think of the damage an invisible Dragon wielding the forces of the Ring (or some of them) could do!

I'm pretty sure that if the Ring,opportunistic thing that it is, thought tempting a Dragon or Balrog or Eagle or Ent or Warg or even a ladybug the best way to go, it would try to.

This begs the question,would Smaug the Dark Dragon Lord be able to destroy Sauron and take his place??

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Noxomanus

would Smaug the Dark Dragon Lord be able to destroy Sauron

Smaug could fly to Mount Doom and drop the Ring in, eagle-style.

Sorry. Please continue.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Don't you think the dragons (and the Balrog) consider Sauron a renegade, considering that he left Morgoth's service after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth?

Orcs and trolls, perhaps, Sauron could control--especially those of beast origin--but even these he cannot control fully (q.v. the Orcs at Cirith Ungol). As Legolas have said, these beings have sworn their allegiance to Morgoth, and, well, Sauron is definitely no Morgoth.

However, as you have said, Sauron may have used his cunning to manipulate the three (Smaug, Durin's Bane, and Shelob) to do his will. Would it be more appropriate to say that it just happened that their wishes all coincided?

Since Balrogs are afraid of the Sun (reminded by Arien of what they could have been? But I digress), Durin's Bane, having taken Moria after the Dwarves foolishly awakened him, it wouldn't leave its safety except perhaps for serious reasons.

Smaug . . . well, Dragons are greedy by nature. Since Durin's Bane already had Moria, the next richest store of wealth is Erebor. So, he goes and takes it, and desolates the land around it as a security measure.

The giant spiders of Arda seem to like nice dark places in mountains. I don't know where Shelob originally came from, but it was said that she came there before Sauron took Mordor. And it was also said the she was no pet of Sauron.