What does the sixpence = ?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by drigel

light=the [PC] world of lazy logic

Then Shippey's analogy is born of the light.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

I'm tired of critics who dismiss fantasy & SF as something childish & meaningless & who seem to take pride in not liking it, as if that's the 'grown-up' position, & who dismiss those genres as being only fit for children or inadequates. They can only handle fiction which depicts the world they know. They only want their limited worldview confirmed & will accept nothing else. They have no desire to learn anything, only to be told that they already know everything important, everything worth knowing.

The BBC just broadcast a program, 'Balderdash & Piffle' presented by Victoria Coren, in which this 'right-on' lady dismissed Lord of the Rings in pretty contemptuous terms.

The example of dismissiveness displayed by Victoria Coren simply displayed a lack of any knowledge and a 'knowing-wink' to those in the 'chattering classes' (of which I am probably a member), making a joke out of the 'oh so cliched Lord of the Rings'. Little do such TV presenters/journalists know but many of the members of the chattering classes may be secretly reading a copy of LotR disguised beneath the covers of Finnegan's Wake; the Harry Potter books have all been issued with alternate 'grown-up covers'.

But that is what gets our backs up in essence. Much of the criticism offered about Tolkien is not in fact about the books, but about us, the fans! I happen to like Germaine Greer as she always can be guaranteed to say something that gets you talking, even if you don't agree with her (and sometimes I do), but to take her quote as an example:

Ever since I arrived at Cambridge as a student in 1964 and encountered a tribe of full-grown women wearing puffed sleeves, clutching teddies and babbling excitedly about the doings of hobbits it has been my nightmare that Tolkien would turn out to be the most influential writer of the twentieth century. The bad dream has been realized

Just why do we find what she says so objectionable? It is because she equates us all with infantile, childlike people, and not child-like in a good way. She excludes us from the 'cool gang' which we must presume she was in (she was not, as it happens, as she was well known for ruffling the feathers of her tutors). And are Tolkien fans like this in reality?

OK, so many of us do in fact do silly things in the name of Tolkien, like dressing up, playing with swords, collecting action figures, trying to win trivia quizzes, getting One Ring tattoos and so on. Do authors such as Jane Austen and Salman Rushdie attract such behaviour? Not really, although the idea of Mr Darcy action figures is something I cannot now get out of my head (being a collector of action figures...).

So we have a tendency to do silly things, or to put it in a better way, to have fun. But I do have to ask whether it is worth us dropping all of this fun in order to have Tolkien taken more seriously, as that seems to be what it would take.

I think I actually prefer to keep the fun, and to have Tolkien remain partially (as he is not totally shunned) outside the establishment literary canon. I take some pleasure in the fact that I like something that I, as an English graduate, am not supposed to like. I also take pleasure in the fact that Tolkien's work is something I discovered for myself. It was not a prescribed text at school or University, and it is still rare to find his work on reading lists, yet so many people still pick up those books and love them. Nor is Tolkien in the realms of 'supermarket fiction', those books which are ubiquitous and can be picked up anywhere for pennies in special deals; his books are always stuffed somewhere at the back of Waterstones (in the nerd section ) and are at full price. Yet still we keep on reading them!

maybe that's what Shippey is talking about. We are all outsiders in a way, kept out of the light at the front of the bookshop, relegated to the back, but we still find the sixpence.

[tar-ancalime]

it's surprising how few people really think about current critical theory while they write fiction.

NO!!! Shocking.

For what it's worth (sixpence?), Shippey didn't create this little analogy out of whole cloth. It's a Buddhist story, and I think the meaning is rather different in that context. I seem to recall that the monk looking for the key (to his house, which he'd lost) in the light is the one on the right path: the idea is that it is the seeking of the key that is important, and ever finding it (or not) is utterly beside the point.

Please, please correct me if you've got a better interpretation of this story--like most of the Buddhist stories I've read, this one leaves me scratching my head a little.

[Bêthberry]

All this talk of darkness and light has reminded me of Lal's post on the Coolection Grows thread about how davem helped her recover her lost One Ring when she lost it by lighting a burning bush in the dark .

It seems to me that much of this criticism is a journalistic tempest in a teapot or hot air bent on inflating their own balloon. Journalists and scholars alike make their mark by raising hackles, by setting their ideas up as new and exciting, by making ripples in the water. The more we respond to them, whether it be Victoria Cohen or Germaine Greer or whoever, the more we simply reward their efforts. Better to ignore them, let their balloons slowly sink back to earth and find other fans to torment.

You know, it was not only or merely for its fantasy elements that Tolkien's work was dismissed in some quarters, but also for his plot, his adherance to nineteenth century kinds of realistic detail, his concept of characterisation. And that is also to miss how many of the chattering classes defended him. One need think only of W. H. Auden, who Tolkien had taught, to recall that those who appreciated language recognised the mithril in Tolkien's work. So, as far as Shippey goes, it's all a bit of transference of energy among air particles.

Now, there's some mixed metaphors instead of allegory.

[Lalwendë]

The 'art' of criticism is indeed a cut-throat business, with reviewers beset with hidden agendas and images to maintain. Germaine Greer herself is a well known iconoclast and as such her 'puff' is particularly hot, yet when it's aimed at a target I agree is worthy of being shot at, then I'm in agreement with her; such fickle things, are opinions.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

You know, it was not only or merely for its fantasy elements that Tolkien's work was dismissed in some quarters, but also for his plot, his adherance to nineteenth century kinds of realistic detail, his concept of characterisation.

The odd thing is that if such critics dared delve deeper into the murky world that is the Internet discussion forum, then they may find all kinds of arguments dealing with the stylistic properties of Tolkien's work. I'm sure we've gone over all of these elements of his work many times on the Downs. But then the world of academia is also pretty cut-throat with much jostling for position over opinions, and I suspect that people only search for the pertinent parts to support their points, as would I if having an argument on here!

Still, Tolkien has had some heavyweight supporters, including WH Auden and Iris Murdoch, not to mention all the academics outside the English faculties who also support him, e.g Ronald Hutton. I am sure as the popularity of Tolkien grows and the education system in the UK grows ever more market driven, there will be more demand from undergraduates that Tolkien be considered an acceptable topic of study, so maybe his work will become acceptable in the canon before long.

[davem]

Its interesting how the critics fall into two camps. We have the Greers, Corens, Howard Jacobson (who responded to LotR winning the Waterstones poll for Book of the Century with "It just shows the folly of these polls, the folly of teaching people
to read. Close all the libraries. Use the money for something else." ie the fact that so many people voted for LotR means the majority of Britons are idiots (Of course Shippey himself points out that idiots would not choose to read, & re-read, an 1100 page book)

The other camp id typified by Johann Hari who states, among other things

The great critic Edmund Wilson called it "balderdash" and "juvenile trash" when it was first published, and it’s hard to disagree. Tolkien’s insufferable obsession with describing a fictional landscape borders on the autistic, as does the almost total absence of women or sophisticated emotion from his work. No, ‘Lord of the Rings’ is not loved because it is a good novel, but because it taps into some of the most atavistic and ugly impulses of our times.

(Notice that at the end of the article he posts a response which is illiterate, ignorant, & possibly borderline insane & then claims that is the most sensible response he has had.)

What comes across to me from these critics is not that they have read Tolkien objectively & found he has nothing to say to them - they have started out with a bias against Tolkien. Their initial attack is that 'Its all nonsense, not fit for grown-ups.' If they are challenged on this, they change tack & claim 'Ok, its not nonsense, its a dangerous fascist tract.'

Hari's claim that Tolkien's subcreation of Middle-earth is 'autistic' is not only insulting but plainly ridiculous - any author will strive to create a convincing secondary world.

What I find most interesting though, is that Tolkien is the one fantasy writer who attracts such venom - these critics may dismiss the fantasy genre generally, but it is Tolkien they single out for attack. Also interesting is the way many of them have taken up Pullman. Why?

I can't help thinking there are two reasons: one, Pullman is an athiest, & HDM is about 'liberating' humanity from an evil God. Two, they maybe think that HDM can deal the death blow to fantast in general & Tolkien in particular. HDM ends not only with no God, but also with no magic, & everyone grows up & goes off to do the 'sensible, grown-up thing' of building the 'Republic of Heaven' (whatever that means).

And again, HDM is, like the Harry Potter books, a children's story. Fantasy is fine, as far as these critics are concerned, if it stays safely in the nursery, & is quickly outgrown. Tolkien wrote for adults, he said things the critics either didn't understand or didn't like. He became popular - way too popular. And that created another problem for the 'Literati'. If LotR is great literature, why did they miss it, why didn;t they recognise that? They are the (self appointed) experts. Its their job to tell us lesser mortals what's important, what matters, & they blew it in the case of Tolkien.

Fact is, they daren't look in the dark - they might find they've got it wrong all along. But the most pernicious thing about them is that not only are they refusing to look in the dark, they're trying to stop anyone else doing so, by making up horror stories about the terrible monsters lurking there.

(End rant....)

[Lalwendë]

It does fascinate and appall me how so many critics, the supposedly educated people, can fling offensive language around in their rush to criticise and make a point. To use "autistic" as a term of abuse is very offensive indeed. To suggest that people ought not to be entitled to learn to read as they will go and read the 'wrong thing' betrays deep-seated class prejudice.

I think that there is truth in the argument that Pullman gets off (relatively) lightly due to the fact that he is an Atheist. It seems to be the accepted viewpoint among the arts establishment that religion is 'wrong'.

I do have it in mind to gather a list of those prominent critics who are pro- or anti- Tolkien and examine whether the anti- arguments are coherent or not, but then I also have it in mind to think "Pft!" and just laugh at them.

You get a similar thing with critics of popular music, although they are more likely to bluster their way out of a misguided opinion. I remember Bob Geldof being particularly vindictive about Madonna around 12 years ago saying that she would never be an iconic figure and 'had no talent' (which made me cough, remembering the erm...not very extensive success of his own recording career). Fast forward to 2005 and he was praising her and inviting her to appear at Live8.

[drigel]

It does fascinate and appall me how so many critics, the supposedly educated people, can fling offensive language around in their rush to criticise and make a point.

IMO that's what made the critics venom so pungent - JRRT was after all one of them. After all, he of all people should know what a sophisticated, emotionally complicated, piece of literature should look like! There was no inherent meaning in the Misty Mountains, they didnt represent (insert any Hemingway analogy here) anything. No conflict in any characters sexuality. No direct references to religion. How boooooring.

The odd thing is that if such critics dared delve deeper into the murky world that is the Internet discussion forum, then they may find all kinds of arguments dealing with the stylistic properties of Tolkien's work.

Academics aside (they will always be there), I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the hope that the internet will cause the Critic industry to go the way of the buggie-whip...