LotR1-FotR-Seq08

[alatar]

Been thinking about the Arwen switch for Glorfindel. Our very first meeting of Arwen is when she prompts Aragorn with a sword to his throat. She then checks out Frodo, then decides that he has to go immediately to the Rivendell ER - she makes no real attempt to heal him. She rides openly against the Nine, and so is an accomplished rider. At the Ford Arwen draws her blade and taunts the assembled Nazgul, something even Gandalf is want to do. Maybe is was all bluff just to get them into the river; maybe not.

My point is that, at some level, Arwen is shown to be a warrior. This would actually make the rumors of her appearance at Helm's Deep more valid, and would even give a reason for the other elves being there (escort?). Did the necessity of having Arwen appear strong in FotR allow for subsequent script changes that, after other ideas arose, became unnecessary yet got included as they were already filmed etc?

But the other side of the thought was that, after taking pains to show Arwen as Xena-ish, she never again appears as a warrior, and so in some ways it appears a waste to have shown her this way...all for not. I think that PJ could have included her here and added more to her warrior side later, or excluded her from the Fords yet made her appear as she did in Rivendell, and add other scenes for her later.

Okay, so that's not very clear - but I'm working on the thoughts .

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, as a book fan, I'm perfectly fine with the warrior aspect of Arwen only showing up in FOTR. As a movie fan, the possibilities are a bit intriguing.

I think this again highlights how difficult it is to adapt this work to film. PJ basically had to expand Arwen's character the way he did in FOTR, but for him to have her fighting in Helm's Deep in TTT (in order to give her more screentime with 'Gorn and round out her fighting character), was "too far" outside the book for Tolkien fans. Including me.

Maybe I should save this for the TTT discussions, but does it strike anyone as awkward to have Arwen and Eowyn both at Helm's Deep? Not only would it be a huge change to the book in the narrative aspect, but it would have far-reaching implications for the Aragorn-Eowyn relationship, which they ended up choosing to keep faithful to the book.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Maybe I should save this for the TTT discussions, but does it strike anyone as awkward to have Arwen and Eowyn both at Helm's Deep? Not only would it be a huge change to the book in the narrative aspect, but it would have far-reaching implications for the Aragorn-Eowyn relationship, which they ended up choosing to keep faithful to the book.

So was the swap of Arwen for Glorfindel just to have her in as much of FotR as possible? As stated, having Arwen and Eowyn at Helm's Deep complicates things, and surely PJ et al would have seen that coming a mile away. Or is it alluded to, as when Aragorn returns to Helm's Deep after his river rapid adventure he regains the Evenstar? Did PJ think to have Arwen show up again, and have a 'triangle moment' that woud throw Eowyn even further into despair? And, if Arwen were there, why is she then sent home, or do we get her and Aragorn together for the rest of the movie?

So, it would seem that PJ included Arwen at the Fords only to have her in the picture as much as he could get away with, and possibly to have a 'strong' younger female role in each film.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Very good points, alatar, and I would say that the "let's get a young female in a prominent role" was probably the biggest reason why PJ had Arwen in there so much.

It's crazy to think about the narrative problems that would be caused by Arwen going to Helm's Deep. I don't even like to think about it. I'm just glad PJ and Co. saw the light and kept her at home (and off to the Havens and back again).

[Lathriel]

I am okay with Arwen the way she is in FOTR. Besides, they had to introduce her one way or the other. I also think that if she didn't have this action scene people would see her as a very passive character who is just there as Aragorn's love interest. Now at least she has another purpose(however brief it is).
Although I don't mind the role switch in FOTR I know that I wouldn't have liked to see her at Helm's Deep. That is just going too far

[alatar]

Hopefully someone can help me out by providing the book text, but when Frodo dreams in the house of Tom Bombadil he sees what we learn is Gandalf imprisoned then escaping Orthanc via Eagle Airlines. If I remember accurately what I heard, Frodo sees the person with a staff use it to call the Eagle, by making some flash of sorts. Now, assuming what Frodo sees in the dream is real, we have Gandalf retaining his staff even though he is restrained by Saruman.

Why, then, does PJ remove the staff from the Wizard? Does he want to make the staves so important so that later, when Gandalf breaks Saruman's and the Witch-King breaks Gandalf's, we see it as the staves are what give the Wizards their powers?

[Lathriel]

In the book it does mention that Gandalf has a staff and thus summons the eagle. But this wouldn't make sense in the movie because the last we see of Gandalf before this scene was him spinning up to the rooftop without his staff. So for me it makes sense because why would they give back his staff, especially since PJ decides to make the staff a symbol of power. (This we see in TTT when Gandalf uses it to get rid of Saruman influencing Theoden)

I think another reason that there is no staff is because PJ said in one of the commentaries that he didn't like to have the wizards shooting lighteningbolts from their staffs and in the book this happens.

The figure(Gandalf) lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded.

Found in the chapter In the house of Tom Bombadil. for my version it is page 167.

I don't really care about this change because I think the alternative is pretty cool. But I must admit that there is a lot of staff losing and finding going on throughout these movies. You never know when Gandalf will lose his staff. the only one who seems to be consistent is Saruman.