Gandalf's Staff

[Gothmog]

So my point here is that Saruman was no more or less powerful with his staff, and so it cannot be a great channeler (i.e. no multiplier effect). And I don't think that the staves have any power within themselves, or surely Sauron would have tried to take them. Gandalf may use the staff to effect something - start a fire with the end of it - but it's not the staff, but Gandalf. Can't see him shooting fire out of his fingers, or breaking the Bridge with his heel, and so he needs some tool.

There's a slight contradiction in what you say. The staff cannot be a great channeler, but Gandalf needs some tool. I agree that it doesn't have any multiplier effect but it is used as a channeler when Gandalf shoots fire from it's end or breaks the bridge. I totally agree with you that the staff in itself doesn't contain the power to do this, but would an ordinary wooden branch be able to do this? It still is Gandalf that has the power and uses the magic though.

Is Gandalf's staff wooden? As mentioned, he uses it to set other wood afire.

Wooden, but enhanced with magic so that it both is fire-resistant (probably tougher in many ways) and has the capacity to channel powerful spells without being destroyed in the process. Unless the power is to great for it or it meets some sort of resistance like the Balrog in alatar's theory.

What would Sauron use such a staff for? I'm sure that Gandalf or Saruman could have managed without one and maybe made a new one. Sauron doesn't have the need of a "focusing tool", and if he needed one he could probably design something himself. Or maybe he already have the two blue wizard's staffs? But if he was in a position where he could take Gandalf's staff, then surely he would be able to kill him just as easily. Obviously, this haven't happened so it's we don't know if he desires the staffs or not. But I'd think that he would be happier if he could get rid of the wizards themselves.

As many others have been pointing out, the staff as a token of a wizards office is important. When Saruman speaks to Gandalf outside Orthanc, he says that Gandalf won't settle before he has the keys to Barad-dûr, seven king's crowns and five wizard's staffs (and a pair of new boots ). Also, Gandalf demands Sarumans staff together with the keys of Orthanc.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

There's a slight contradiction in what you say.

I must not be trying hard enough then if I've only contradicted myself slightly....

The staff cannot be a great channeler, but Gandalf needssome tool.

Agreed. As noted, when Gandalf faces wolves and Wargs, he uses pine cones or branches, whatever seems handle. Again my point is that the staff isn't really that special, nor is Gandalf helpless without it, but like he said on Caradhras, he can't burn snow and so needs something.

What would Sauron use such a staff for?

The only useful thing would be as a spike upon which to place a wizard's head. My point is that if the staffs had any innate power, then Sauron may have attempted to acquire one or more. Sauron had a palantir, stole black horses and also had his minions gather up any mithril that they stumbled upon, and so sought out that which could be used or turned to some evil purpose. Melkor took the Silmarils, not so much as they were useful to him (well, not directly, but his acquisition of the Jewels surely caused a fuss) but for bragging rights ("Hey Fëanor, how do you like my new crown? Naanaanaa!").

[Gothmog]

Again my point is that the staff isn't really that special, nor is Gandalf helpless without it, but like he said on Caradhras, he can't burn snow and so needs something.

You and I are on the same wavelength concerning this. I've never said that Gandalf is helpless without his staff, on the contrary I've always said that the power originates in Gandalf and that he can cast spells without it (as we see him do at some occasions). But I still think that the staff is making it easier.

About the staff not being special, didn't you yourself wonder about the fire resistance of the staff? How can we explain this without a protecting power of some kind? A staff made of stone? Besides, I doubt that a piece of wood can be used as a magic channeler or resist the strains this must bring.

My point is that if the staffs had any innate power, then Sauron may have attempted to acquire one or more. Sauron had a palantir, stole black horses and also had his minions gather up any mithril that they stumbled upon, and so sought out that which could be used or turned to some evil purpose.

Again: maybe Sauron wanted the staffs. But to acquire one he had to kill (or at least seriously hurt) Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. He needed Saruman for other purposes and I don't think he wanted to upset his ally yet. And for Gandalf he would need a very powerful servant which could destroy him. And why risk someone like the witchking to gather a staff which might help him a little bit (or give him an excuse for an irritating HAAAHAAA and some fingerpointing in the direction of the Istari). Then there's Radagast. We don't know much about his whereabouts and doings but I think we can regard him as a wizard of lesser power than Gandalf or Saruman. We don't even know if he have a staff as far as I know, except for the mention of "five wizard's staffs" by Saruman.

My point his, I don't think that they contained enough power to interest the Dark Lord or make him risk one of his most powerful minions, but they contained some power.

[Essex]

You and I are on the same wavelength concerning this. I've never said that Gandalf is helpless without his staff, on the contrary I've always said that the power originates in Gandalf and that he can cast spells without it (as we see him do at some occasions). But I still think that the staff is making it easier.

Though my admonition of the text was mostly in jest at the start of this thread, reading these posts, unfortunately, I'm begining to see a flaw in the use of Staffs in LOTR. Sorry Professor.....

If the stafff makes it EASIER to cast spells, why does he not use his staff on the two of the most important confrontations - 1/ on the door to the chamber he had to say a Word of Command - which spent him of most of his power and 2/ breaking Saruman's staff - neither of these occasions did he use his staff, but in the case of number 1 - Ten minutes later he DOES use his staff to break the Bridge. Very confusing I have to admit....... a mistake by the Author??????

[Gothmog]

If the stafff makes it EASIER to cast spells, why does he not use his staff on the two of the most important confrontations - 1/ on the door to the chamber he had to say a Word of Command - which spent him of most of his power and 2/ breaking Saruman's staff - neither of these occasions did he use his staff, but in the case of number 1 - Ten minutes later he DOES use his staff to break the Bridge. Very confusing I have to admit....... a mistake by the Author??????

I don't have any good answers to your question, but I can see one explanation for case 2 if we look at this action as the official end of Saruman's power more than an actual breaking of it. It might be that Saruman, by his disobedience towards Valar, has lost his power and Gandalf only performs the last, official act in removing the power. He takes away Saruman's token of office and power: his staff. If that's the case, Gandalf wouldn't need any great power to break it. One can also suspect the interference of Valar, that Gandalf has their support in this action and only works as a tool for the execution of their will. That would perhaps give him the power of Valar for this task and the use of a staff would be unnecessary.

In the first case, we don't even know what this Word of Command really is, so how can we discuss the necessity of a staff for this? This Word of Command is a word and maybe it's used orally, without any special focusing of it's power? I don't know...

[davem]

We also have Denethor breaking his staff of office as he stands on his pyre. This seems to be a symbolic setting aside of authority, or rank/position. Denethor rejects the position of Steward, Saruman has his position as head of the Order taken from him by Gandalf.

[alatar]

And I would note that unless it states otherwise, Gandalf always has his hand on his staff, so even when it doesn't come into play (or to the forefront of the text), it's still there. Rarely does he set it down or aside.