Culinary traditions in Middle Earth

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thinlomien

I'm too lazy to find the exact quote, but isn't Sam in Mordor dreaming about waddling through the river? If hobbits fished like standing in a river and piercing the fish with harpoons?

And of course, we're forgetting one of the most famous parts of the chapter of Herbs and stewed rabbit! Sam boasts to Gollum about S. Gamgee's fish and chips. That, if something, proves that hobbits ate fish.

There are lots of ways of fishing that don't involve getting in a boat, from trout tickling to basket casting, to even stringing up nets across a watercourse to catch whatever might swim or drift that way. I'm sure Hobbits would think of some ingenious way of catching tasty fisheses that didn't involve nassty boatses!

And it seems Gollum himself is skilled in the art of trout tickling, something I can imagine many a Hobbit lad doing on a hot day.

I wonder if there was a water bailiff in the Shire, waiting to catch people without a permit? It's happened to me, that's why I find the thought appealing...

Originally Posted by Jenny Hallu

Perhaps Tolkien decided that potatoes, in the 450 some odd years since their introduction in Europe, had become such an integral part of the culture and cuisine of the British Isles he could not separate them. Or maybe it didn't occur to him to try. Sometimes I fear we read too much into the tale...As my husband would say, "Sometimes a red car is just a red car," signifying nothing beyond the idea that perhaps Tolkien had a soft spot for fish and chips, or for tobacco.

I think taters have become such a strong feature in British cuisine that we almost think they are a native vegetable! Part of the reason (amongst many) why Ireland suffered so badly during the potato famine was that they had such an agricultural monoculture and had few other crops to fall back on when blight struck! I know that where I grew up there were fields as far as you could see which were devoted to growing taters.

EDIT: I've just found out that tobacco will grow just about anywhere - it's a big crop in Sweden apparently, where chewing tobacco is popular - it's called snus. What's more, it's totally legal and duty free. So pipeweed is perfectly feasible in a Shire which is equivalent to England.

[JennyHallu]

EDIT: I've just found out that tobacco will grow just about anywhere - it's a big crop in Sweden apparently, where chewing tobacco is popular - it's called snus. What's more, it's totally legal and duty free. So pipeweed is perfectly feasible in a Shire which is equivalent to England.

Yay! Thank you Lalwende for making me feel smart...wonderful to be conjecturizing (BSing) and have some dedicated, intelligent individual do the research that proves you correct!

Oh...and I think Dalemen came up with sandwiches. Don't ask me why, it doesn't matter, I can just picture Brand sitting with his feet on a table chowing down on a great big slab of roast-beef sandwiched between thick slices of dark bread with horseradish.

THERE IS NO LOGIC TO THIS BELIEF. But I am SURE that Dalemen like sandwiches.

[Nogrod]

Good points over Hobbits eating fish. I'll surely change my mindset with this one - and start to plan fish-recipies for hobbits. There seem to be some natural limitations though: no sea-fish (tuna, swordfish etc.), and propably less of salmon-like "big-ones" (I'm not totally sure about this later one, but at least for a while, it seems right). So, small fish, white-fleshed - I don't have a vocabulary at my home at the moment, so I couldn't give any suggestions, but in Finnish...

We'll come back to this, feel free to make suggestions!

And JennyHallu! I do share your weird idea of sandwiches with the Dalemen. There seems to be something right in that one, don't know why, either. Let's see, if we can come with a reasoning over that?

Concerning potatoes. I would be ready to line up with those who think, that Tolkien just felt them so indispendable with his time's British kitchen, that he didn't pay any attention... and anyway, after being imported from South-Americas to Europe in this real world, they surely grow well here. So why to take the actual botanical history of the "real world" as a reference to things in the Middle Earth? The same goes with tobacco, and why not with some other items too: tomatoes and (bell)peppers for example? These are not original plants of Europe either... Whether the Middle Earth has anything to do with Europe in the first place, that's also another question to be asked? But clearly, it's our only way to go: early twentieth century Europe. That was Tolkien's world from which he wrote from.

Sorry, but I have been busy lately, and will be for a couple of days. I'll open the new thread for the "recipies only", in the near future, and try to open it up with some new recipies, some vegetarian one's also. Be ready to contribute your own to that shared thread!

And lastly: talking about vegetarianism. Do you think the Beornings were just vegetarians, or were they also vegans? So did they approve of the use of the products from animals (milk, cheese, hides - after the death of an animal, etc.) or were they strictly against any usage of the animal-products? Who remembers "the Hobbit" the best? I think, I would go for just vegetarianism, but have you others any ideas, or grounds for thinking the other way around?

[Lalwendë]

They could have salmon in The Shire - the Brandywine is a long river, and I imagine if there were Salmon in Middle earth then they might swim up it. they could be caught at weirs, or even with nets strung across the river. Maybe Brandybucks liked a spot of fly fishing?

I can imagine Eels would have been eaten too, caught from small streams.

The Beornings must have been vegetarian, not vegan, as they ate honey didn't they?

[Nogrod]

Good point on honey!

Well, I was indeed quite sure that the Beornings would be vegetarians, not vegans, but just tried to ask.

Even though, we might do with a couple of more arguments, one way or another...

One interesting thing is, whether they were described by Tolkien as a kind of a very poor ancient nordic community (described by the roman Tacitus f.ex.), that possibly ate meat, f.ex. bear's meat, at certain festivities / rituals, anyhow, rarely - as some northern people did in the real world. And was this due to them worshipping the animals, or holding them dear just because they were so scarce? So was Tolkien of the mind of creating a totally vegetarian people (which would have been quite ahead of his time), or was it just an imitation of a northern tribes at certain historical setting, who revered meat so much, as it wasn't in their daily diet (and the other sources of nutrition were thin indeed: berries, mushroom, roots, ...)?

It's funny, anyhow, how the lore of the northern people do concentrate on the wild beasts; bears, elk etc. (and the swans here around Finland!) - like the cultures of Aurignac etc. (bisons, horses...) far south of them. Was it, that they were revered as sacred, or that they were the Big Macs' of their time?

[JennyHallu]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Whether the Middle Earth has anything to do with Europe in the first place, that's also another question to be asked? But clearly, it's our only way to go: early twentieth century Europe. That was Tolkien's world from which he wrote from.

Personally, I am all for this. This means, as an American, I am from the Uttermost West! When I return to Middle-Earth to discuss things with you all, then what I say has WEIGHT! You must LISTEN and OBEY! As you would ANY of the Istarii! (We are ignoring the fact for now that my ancestors were European.)


Back on topic:

Tolkien kind of implied that Beornings' vegetarianism was due to the unique viewpoint afforded them by their shape-shifting. So perhaps the vegetarianism wasn't so much a reflection of a RL culture, but a way of setting the Beornings apart, both from RL Nordic traditions, and from other ME cultures with Nordic roots.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

They could have salmon in The Shire - the Brandywine is a long river, and I imagine if there were Salmon in Middle earth then they might swim up it. they could be caught at weirs, or even with nets strung across the river. Maybe Brandybucks liked a spot of fly fishing?

I can imagine Eels would have been eaten too, caught from small streams.

The Beornings must have been vegetarian, not vegan, as they ate honey didn't they?

I have to agree with Lalwendë on this one because in Alaska (where I live) the Salmon swim up into the rivers from the ocean to mate and die and usually people go to rivers during that season to find salmon. The Brandybucks could also have gone fishing on boats because it is said in numerous places in the books that some times Brandybucks go out on boats.

[Finduilas]

Note on Nogrod's recipe, "coriander" is commonly known as "cilantro", so if you were confused... Just had to say that since I have put coriander on a grocery list, and my dad was unable to find it, though he knows what cilantro is.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Thanks Finduilas, Agood tip, because I didn't know what coriander was until you said that.