The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark

[littlemanpoet]

I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

Usch, usch.
At least his is a kinder Gollum than the one we see in LotR.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Usch, usch.
At least his is a kinder Gollum than the one we see in LotR.

Barely. It was a children's story after all! Usch usch? I'm sorry, what's that mean?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Usch usch? I'm sorry, what's that mean?

It's my expressio that is close to . I can't descirbe it any better.

But isn't Bilbo showing kindness (or at least courtesy) to Gollum? Don't we see a tiny bit of his former self (=Sméagol) there?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
I think you're all off track with this Sméagol/Gollum dichotomy as it pertains to this chapter. Gollum was in the fore, and had been for quite a few centuries, and remained in the fore right up until the moment Frodo bound him by the Ring ... and treated him as someone with the dignity of a human (read hobbitish) soul. Only then did Sméagol appear. Tolkien makes this quite clear in the chapter called The Taming of Sméagol.

Ssss. Always poor Smeagol is picked on. Didn't we just go over
to see The Baggins out of curiosity, preciouss.

'What iss he, my precious?' whispered Gollum...This is what he had come to find out, for he was not really very hungry at the moment, only curious

And what of the story the nice hobbit later wrote:

Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed- as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

And everyone knows you cannst cheat at the riddle game, not even
nassty, evil creatures would do so, gollum.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But isn't Bilbo showing kindness (or at least courtesy) to Gollum? Don't we see a tiny bit of his former self (=Sméagol) there?

Yes, Bilbo is showing courtesy, though when he does, he doesn't really have any pity for Gollum; just fear, right? His pity for Gollum only manifests when he has a choice to try to jump over Gollum or to kill him. And at that point, Gollum's only objective is to 'catch the thief' and no doubt mete out 'justice' of a sort (I wouldn't want that kind of justice, would you?). By contrast, Frodo has had time to think and consider what he would do if confronted with Gollum, and has grown in character far beyond what was required of Bilbo. When it comes time for him to show pity, he is doing it very consciously and obviously, showing a formidable mastery of self-control that frankly astounds Gollum into a reversion to Sméagol. ... and only then does Sméagol come out.

Consider what a child like, willing to please, capering, dog-like servant Sméagol is. None of that is evident in this chapter. In this chapter, Gollum is a callous and clever killer (ooh, don't we love our alliteration! ), very threatening and not in the least anything near Sméagol, who is quite dormantly buried deep within the heart of Gollum.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Ssss. Always poor Smeagol is picked on. Didn't we just go over to see The Baggins out of curiosity, preciouss.

Originally Posted by Jenny Hallu

Smeagol wasn't ever gone from Gollum's character, but I think he just never argued until Frodo came into the picture.

I agree with this; the reason was that Sméagol was too weak until Gollum was chained by his vow to the Ring.

[Lhunardawen]

For a long time, this is the only chapter in The Hobbit that I've read. The riddles never fail to amuse me, and there's always something with reading about Gollum. Unfortunately, I got to know him first in LotR and not here, so there's no "The Hobbit first impression" that I can formulate about him. All I can say is that this Gollum, although in a more child-friendly setting, is definitely the same Gollum who bit off Frodo's finger (to say the least). Tolkien probably had to tone down the violence for the children who are reading, but we who have read LotR know that Gollum is tricksy and dangerous. And what's even scarier is that prior to Bilbo's arrival, he had been pretty much left alone. Surely the sudden appearance of a non-goblin was surprising to him, and we never know what a surprised Gollum can do, because in LotR he was always the one doing the surprising.

Reading this chapter with the entire events of the future in mind is overwhelming. (I wanted to read this again just concentrating on the present events alone, but I couldn't help but look forward into Frodo's time and the Quest, so help me.) It's really amazing how every single thing tied into place. For one, it was stupid for Bilbo to reveal his name, of course, but he didn't know that, or he probably didn't care at that moment. But if he didn't tell Gollum his name, Gollum couldn't have told his tormentors about it, and...well, I'll stop there. A lot more can be said, but this isn't LotR CbC.

Another thing that's interesting here is the element of luck in the guessing game, which had sided with Bilbo for the most part. Eru's intervention? I dare not stretch it. But you'd all probably have to agree with me that Bilbo should have been a goner by the end of this chapter. Of course it doesn't help that one of the previous chapters had already provided foresight that the book will have a happy ending, but we never know what will happen in non-fairy tale children's stories.

More thoughts to come later, I hope.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It's interesting that you should mention the element of "luck" in the riddle game, Lhuna. Both Bilbo and Gollum were lucky, I thought at first. But closer reading has brought me to agree with the idea of Bilbo's luck.

The first answers were easy on both sides, warming up, so to speak. Then Gollum had to dig deep for memories of sun and daisies, as well as for eggs - not really the result of luck, but of thinking. "Fish" was Bilbo's first 'lucky' answer, but the real luck was with "time", which was spoken unintentionally. Divine intervention? Possibly...

The "pockets" riddle was also spoken unintentionally, as a question to himself. Gollum could have passed over it and demanded a genuine riddle, but he accepted it. Did Bilbo have help from 'above'/'outside'?

As a matter of fact, wasn't the pockets question absolutely necessary to the further development of events in LotR? If Gollum hadn't realized that Bilbo had his ring, would he have left the caves to search for it, or thought it must be in there and looked even deeper for it? And if Gollum hadn't left his 'home', would the ring ever have been destroyed?

Yes, I too make the connection with the bigger and later story when I read The Hobbit, especially this chapter. But that's not surprising - after all, it was revised to fit those 'future' events!