Speaking of a Silly Poll

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't. (Form)

Live with it.

I still think Finrod is the greatest--at least in his generation group. It's just that silly succession law that prevented him from claiming the throne.

[Lalaith]

For what you ask? Kuru, you *have* forgotten the Fen of Serech, haven't you?

The men of Dor-lomin sacrifice themselves so that Turgon and his boys can sneak back to their sodding hidden city. Hurin is captured after performing feats of arms and courage unmatched by any elf or man on Middle Earth before or since. For this deed, and for facilitating Turgon's escape, he and his kin are tortured for years by Morgoth. On release, he asks the elf for whom he offered up this incredible sacrifice, for refuge. Turgon refuses.

If that isn't ingratitude then I would like you to tell me what is.

[Numenorean]

Upon first reading the above list of Kings I really had no idea which way to vote, but after reading the other posts and pondering some sections of the Silmarillion, I’m going for that eternal crowd pleaser …Turgon. I think I would struggle to defend the reputation of this much-maligned Elf better than Kuru already has. I would only add that given the ever darkening situation in Beleriand I never thought his actions were anything other than understandable.

In (attempted) defence of what Lalaith has claimed to be Turgons ingratitude with regards to the way he treated Húrin after his ‘release’ from Morgoth, Turgon was faced with an incredible dilemma:
His friend and ally Húrin had been imprisoned and placed directly under Morgoths dark power for 28 years, when he suddenly appeared in the vicinity of Gondolins secret old Way of Escape, shouting and cursing with the creatures of Morgoth watching on. Now given Turgons first hand experience and knowledge of Morgoths unquenchable capacity for evil, he rightly suspected the Bauglirs will behind Húrins reappearance, and acted as a ruler should - by placing the welfare and security of his people before that of his old friend. However, even with his great responsibilities as High King, he could not abide by his own – and arguably correct - decision and outright abandon their friendship, as we see in the Silm. that:

Turgon sat long in thought, and was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin of Dor-lómin; and he opened his heart, and sent to the eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him if they might to Gondolin. But it was too late.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It demonstrates that Aredhel was a spoiled brat. The Noldor were not in Middle-earth to have a jolly good time. There is a quote from an orc that might have done Aredhel a world of good, "Don't you know we're at war?" The Noldor were at war faced with an enemy far beyond their strength. The only thing they could do was make the best of their dire situation. Aredhel, in her empty-headed silliness, willfully disregarded this part of her brother's role and selfishly demanded her own way and the ultimate result was complete disaster. I'm often inclined to think that Maeglin's naughtiness was more a result of his mother's nature than his father's.

I always wonder why, if the Noldor are there to make war, Turgon decides instead to hide. Yes, they may stand a good chance of survival, but when they finally leave their secret hideaway what will they find? It makes me think of those who believed a personal nuclear bunker would help them survive a holocaust - it might well do that but what would they be faced with when they finally emerged? I think Turgon realised too late after bringing his people (and Gondolin was not populated entirely by 'his' people) from Aman that he had brought them into danger so he decided to lock them into Gondolin.

I also don't think Aredhel was empty-headed or silly. Like a lot of women she naturally reacted against the 'protection' that was in fact a restriction. And it was not just Aredhel who Turgon displayed arrogance towards, he was also like this with Eol.

Turgon sat long in thought, and was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin of Dor-lómin; and he opened his heart, and sent to the eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him if they might to Gondolin. But it was too late.

Hmm, Turgon, a bit like the guy who sees someone being beaten up but has his best clothes on, so instead he rings the police when he gets home. Not quite doing the right thing.

I have to say, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien lays out all these tales and leaves us to judge whether the characters were right or wrong; such distinctions can be more clear cut in LotR than in the Sil. Is this due to the style? Or is it that LotR goes into more narrative detail so we have more chance to learn motives etc? Thinking about Denethor, we are able to see why he acts as he does in LotR as we learn a lot of detail about him, but we do not have the same level (or is it style?) of information for Turgon. Hmm...

[Lalaith]

Exactly, Lalwende. If Turgon just wanted to live in a safe, pretty white city, why didn't he stay in Tirion? Middle-Earth was obviously a bit rougher than he expected.
The only thing I can think of in his defence is that the loss of his wife knocked the gumption out of him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Exactly, Lalwende. If Turgon just wanted to live in a safe, pretty white city, why didn't he stay in Tirion? Middle-Earth was obviously a bit rougher than he expected.

Or did he simple not want to play the game of the long defeat, and so instead of throwing lives away that, even if they gave victory in battle, would just be a drop in the blood bucket in the seemingly endless war that was doomed from the beginning to be lost.

And in regards to Húrin Thalion, did he not choose to stand as the rear guard so that Turgon could escape? Does one give a gift then ask to be paid for it? If so, then it is not a gift but a deal, a contract, a business transaction, and so all the less praiseworthy. Surely Húrin's decision to stay behind cost him and his kin dearly, and Turgon is forever is his debt, but this doesn't mean that Turgon is liable to repay anything, and definitely not at the price of Gondolin.

Húrin's mind was tainted by Morgoth, and so his actions after his captivity aren't that of a hero, but of a sad broken man, but what else could he do?

[Kuruharan]

For what you ask? Kuru, you *have* forgotten the Fen of Serech, haven't you?

The ingratitude was all on Hurin’s part. You forget that he owed Turgon his life because Turgon set aside the law of his kingdom (twice) by not killing Hurin and then by letting him go free. Hurin repays Turgon by exposing his kingdom to ruin. If that is not ingratitude and betrayal, I don’t know what is.

Note that Hurin owed a personal debt to Turgon. The Fen of Serech was a state matter where the lords of Dor-lomin willingly sacrificed themselves to allow the king of Gondolin to escape. This hardly necessitates a personal response by the king later if it puts his kingdom in danger, as Numenorean has already said.

I always wonder why, if the Noldor are there to make war, Turgon decides instead to hide.

Because Ulmo told him to. The real puzzle is why he decided to come out again.

I also don't think Aredhel was empty-headed or silly.

I’m afraid I have to categorically disagree with your definitions of them then.

Like a lot of women she naturally reacted against the 'protection' that was in fact a restriction.

Then she should not have gone with Turgon in the first place but should have gone to her brother or her father. I’m sure Turgon would have gladly allowed this before she knew the location of his secret kingdom.

And why are you so persistent in overlooking the fact that Aredhel’s little life was not the only one devastated by her actions. That is why she is so empty-headed and silly. Not that her behavior wasn’t dumb on her own behalf, she just refused to acknowledge that there were other things in the world more important than she was and she wrought all sorts of destruction in the wake of her thoughtless frolics.

And it was not just Aredhel who Turgon displayed arrogance towards, he was also like this with Eol.

I am confused...

But Turgon treated him with honour, and rose up and would take his hand; and he said: “Welcome, kinsman, for so I hold you. Here you shall dwell at your pleasure save only that you must here abide and depart not from my kingdom; for it is my law that none who finds the way hither shall depart.”

It was only after Eöl behaved quite rudely that Turgon became surly in turn. Again, he had a whole lot of other people to think about and protect. His earlier leave from his kingdom was already causing all kinds of problems. Why should he do it again?

If only Finrod had some of Turgon's haughty snobbery, his kingdom would have lasted longer

I think you misunderstand the circumstance a little. For one thing, it wasn’t Finrod who lost the kingdom. He only lost his life. Beren wasn’t being trailed by the spies of the enemy nor had he been in Morgoth’s hands for a few decades. Finrod had made a promise. Turgon made no promise of reciprocation to Hurin.

[Formendacil]

The whole Turgon debate... amuses me...

Basically, what I'm getting out of reading it is that Turgon was human (not a "Man", to clarify). He had his good traits, his bad traits, his personal eccentricities. He is a character who changes over time...

In other words, he's not a two-dimensional person. Or, at least, he's fleshed out better than Finwe, Fingolfin, Finarfin, or Fingon... or assorted other Finweans.

[drigel]

great points all. I love this blog.

It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.

It was a strategy that needed dicipline, that's all. IMO Turgon, of all the Kings, came to the realization early (before his inheritance of the thrown) that success would only come from the West, and not from the swords of the Noldor. Different strategy, as in not running around with all that overt hacking and slashing.

imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people?

Imagine if Aragorn was in semi regular conversations with a Vala who offered advice...

As seen with the reaction of Eol, I can well imagine that Turgon might have encountered difficulty in fostering allegiance from all the Elves.

I wouldnt go that far with that conclusion. It was his sister, after all. Those are some great insights into the psychology of Adredhel, though Lal! Thank you for helping me walk a few steps in her evlish sandles!

And why do you have such a high opinion of Finrod and a low opinion of Turgon when the policies they set for their kingdoms were exactly the same? I detect a double-standard here.

The only difference there that I would bring up being that Finrod's kingdom was hidden, and Turgon's (until the last) was inviolate. Only Melian had success at this. If only Finrod had some of Turgon's haughty snobbery, his kingdom would have lasted longer....

Turgon, a bit like the guy who sees someone being beaten up but has his best clothes on, so instead he rings the police when he gets home. Not quite doing the right thing.

To me he did what needed to be done, especially towards the end. After all, his deeds ultimately and finally led to what Mithalwen succintly said: The salvation of all the children of Ea. King indeed.

[Anguirel]

First, I want to attempt an answer to the interesting question Lalwende raised.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

I have to say, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien lays out all these tales and leaves us to judge whether the characters were right or wrong; such distinctions can be more clear cut in LotR than in the Sil. Is this due to the style? Or is it that LotR goes into more narrative detail so we have more chance to learn motives etc?

This is part of the reason why I love the Silmarillion above everything else in Tolkien. The process of reading it is like studying mediaeval history-and I mean that entirely as a compliment. We're shown this dramatic, highly coloured, tragic and beautiful world; but we're shown it almost without sources. So in the end our personal taste is decisive and not bound by any conventions. So, at the risk of sounding awfully pious, everyone is right in, for example, this Turgon debate.

As for my own views...I never really admired any of the heroes bound up with the general "let's go and beg to the Valar" approach. Earendil never got near Maedhros in my view for instance. I suppose the words of Feanor held an enduring grasp on my mind.

When I read the Silmarillion, I sided, quite naturally, as I did with the Orkneys in Malory, with the Sons of Feanor. They seemed to me quite the obvious heroes at first. The clear quest to avenge their grandfather and father and regain the jewels, whatever the cost...I supported it utterly. Even in the later Kinslayings, I thought to myself "Idiots! Why don't you give them the gem? It belongs to them!" This seemed to me the obvious, clear approach.

Imagine my surprise when a friend I'd recommended the book to remarked "These Sons of Feanor! They should forget about the jewels and get a grip!" Another slant, and one that might be thought rather more usual...! But it took me a while to sympathise with it.

A final point, to Formendacil, and to Fordim I suppose-Maedhros was, if briefly, High King of the Noldor between his father's death and his renunciation of the crown. You could even make a case (one much beloved by fanfic writers) that Maglor was acting High King during Maedhros' captivity...

[drigel]

Originally Posted by Numenorean

Upon first reading the above list of Kings I really had no idea which way to vote, but after reading the other posts and pondering some sections of the Silmarillion, I’m going for that eternal crowd pleaser …Turgon.

Turgon Appreciation Society: 2 and counting ..?..? sigh

the groundswell continues