Speaking of a Silly Poll

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

One misguided ruler, and a lot of people who suffer because of his misguided attempts to 'protect' them, and all the more tragic because it was all necessary for other later events to take place, which would be events to turn the tide.

When writing the last SbS entry, I watched Grima, using Theoden as a prop, banish Eomer from the realm. That got me to thinking, as it wasn't Grima alone who did this. He had help; those who willingly followed his orders as though they were from the King.

In regards to Turgon, he could not have held the people against their will unless he had some support from others. He could have spouted off as much as he wanted about maintaining the secrecy of Gondolin, but everyone else could have laughed and walked out of the gate. But this did not happen. Most, and seemingly in this case it's a very high percentage, stayed either for fear of the outside, in respect for the King's wishes/law, or were happy within the walls.

Where's Turgon in all of that? Did they all wear chains?

I think that we at times point to the leader and blame him/her for all that goes wrong, not seeing that many times the problem lies with all of us in allowing/following/not correcting such a leader. Sometimes the person out in front doesn't step forward, everyone else just stepped back.

The other thought sprung fom reading this thread was, at times, my friends and I have played the mental exercise of 'lifeboat.' Not that that's the name, as it could be 'bunker,' 'spacecraft,' etc. The game is that you have too many people and not enough room/supplies. You are given hypothetical people and from that list, you have to choose who stays inside and who goes in the ocean/out the door/out the airlock.

The exercise gives you a glimpse into people's decision-making process, and you can get into some fun arguments, but it's just hypothetical. I think that if it came down to it, many people would not be able to make the hard decisions necessary for some to survive, and so as a result, all would die. Luckily, there are those that can make the hard decisions. Our ancestors all were these type of people, and some of the things that they may have done we now may find repugnant, but we're here now because of what they did.

Turgon made the hard calls. His heart may have said otherwise, but, as it was a cold but nuclear war with Morgoth, he had to slay Eol.

It's easy to say that we'd not have done the same.

[davem]

OK, stepping back & trying to see both sides of the argument....

I think we all accept that Turgon was not perfect, & in the end he fell into error. He started out a bit like someone concerned with their health, taking excercise, avoiding smoking, etc, in order to live a longer, healthier life. In the end, though, he seems to have crossed the line & convinced himself that if he took enough precautions he could ensure his survival indefinitely.

The fall of Gondolin is fated & at the last Turgon refuses to leave because of pride & love of the place. In the end he 'outlived his usefulness' & proved a hindrance to all concerned. 'Love not too well the works of thy hands' is the theme being played out.

The best we can say for Aredhel is that she perhaps suffered from the Elvish flaw of restlessness within Middle-earth. This is something we cannot underestimate. Gondolin maybe reminded her too much of the West, yet it wasn't the West.

I don't think there are any real 'monsters' on the Elvish side. Aredhel is no more, or less, 'immature' than many Elves. Incarceration, even in a palace, is still incarceration, & sometimes the line between the escape of the prisoner & the flight of the deserter is very difficult to define. Aredhel was in a sense both an escaping prisoner & a fleeing deserter. Turgon was both her protector & her jailer.

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

You just know that in all of these tales that chaos has to enter the picture sometime, as what's the point? We could read endless pages where nothing of import happens in Gondolin, then after the War of Wrath Turgon and company could poke their heads out of their shells and go back to the West.

There's an exciting read.

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's like holding your breath; you can give in sooner and breathe normally, or hold it as long as you can, then finally be forced to breathe and so have to suck wind to catch back up.

R1

[drigel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Originally Posted by Davem

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

Well put. I would conjecture that the existence of Gondolin (unmolested) is as important as its demise. In a Turgon led Gondolin, we have a vision of what the Noldorian/Sindarian kingdoms would look like, if Morgoth was not in their world. An ideal of purety and strength that IMO was vital, necessary, and important to the psyche of the Exiles. The question of whether or not all those Noldor would have come to ME if it weren't for Morgoth can be debated, but the importance of the idea of Gondolin (IMO) can not be.

I would further conjecture that this archetype (if you will) was as imperative for the Exiles as the strategic importance was, in the battle against Morgoth. IMO, it was at the very least, as great an influence on the Exile's psyche as it was on Morgoth's sense of doom that was going to recieve as a result from Turgon. This is why I think (at least in my mind) the legacy of Gondolin exceeds the other Noldorian kingdoms of the 1st age.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

You just know that in all of these tales that chaos has to enter the picture sometime, as what's the point? We could read endless pages where nothing of import happens in Gondolin, then after the War of Wrath Turgon and company could poke their heads out of their shells and go back to the West.

There's an exciting read.

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's like holding your breath; you can give in sooner and breathe normally, or hold it as long as you can, then finally be forced to breathe and so have to suck wind to catch back up.

R1

Well, I suppose that we could say that we wouldn't even be discussing the motivation of Turgon if Gondolin hadn't been destroyed. It might just be another footnote in HoME. And I wonder if this would have been the case if Aredhel had been stopped from leaving? I have to say I'm still suspicious that someone else would have tried it. But putting that aside for now as it's going around in circles and I guess that Kuruharan and I shall have to agree to disagree, there's another question. Was it Aredhel's mishaps that were the catalyst for Turgon's fame?

What I'm getting at is that we all like to weigh up our heroes, but without the people who do foolish or evil things, what heroes would there be?

That's why even though I think Gil-Galad was the best King in moral terms, I find Feanor the most exciting; he was the one who added most value to the story for me, because he did the wrong things in spectacular style.

[Kuruharan]

Was it Aredhel's mishaps that were the catalyst for Turgon's fame?

I don't think so. When a prominent person mysteriously vanishes without a trace, that is usually enough to garner a large amount of fame. Mysteries are eternally intriguing. I think the scale and audacity of what he did also play a role.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Lalwendë, Kuruharan and anyone else interested in Aredhel, Turgon and the Fall of Gondolin might be interested in Lush's thread Aredhel the bad girl? over in Books. My own opinion on the issue is discussed there at some length, and perhaps it can be revived for fresh controversy.

[Holbytlass]

Alas, I myself cannot participate in this poll because I don't fully (and some not at all) know these figures. Which brings me to the reason why I posted in the first place-curious, why is this in "Novices and Newcomers"? By sheer definition most won't be familiar with them.