Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Essex

In other words, Middle Earth was saved because of Frodo's compassion towards Gollum. He had the chance a number of times to rid the world of Gollum, but did not do so. In the end, this is what the whole of Lord of the Rings is about to me. REDEMPTION. ME was redeemed from falling into Sauron's hands because of Frodo's compassion towards Gollum. without this, ME would fall.

A couple of things. On these threads it has been mentioned that Frodo failed at the Sammath Naur and there were no 'heroes' at this point. In my point of view Frodo SUCEEDED. Did he physically throw the Ring into the Fire? NO. But what was the Quest? To destroy the One Ring. Was the One Ring destroyed? YES. Was it destroyed because of Frodo's compassion towards Gollum? YES.

Therefore to me, Gollum is about as far away from a D E M as you can get. He is integral to the whole of the LOTR.

This is very interesting. My usual take on Frodo's heroism is always that it was the getting to Mount Doom that was the truly heroic part, but I think that we might often overlook his heroism in offering compassion to Gollum. I'm not sure at what point he decides in his heart not to hurt or kill Gollum, but at some stage an 'epiphany' of understanding takes place within Frodo.

This may be what Gandalf was hinting at all the way way back in Bag End when he asked Frdod if he really could kill a creature such as Gollum. I think Gandalf too may have had this moment of realisation, or even had it from the beginning. It may have taken deep understanding of the true nature of The Ring to appreciate what Gollum was and what he was motivated by, something Gandalf would perhaps have known, but maybe only another Ring Bearer could truly understand? Even so, Sam, despite being a Ring Bearer, still does not appreciate Gollum in the same way that Frodo does.

If Frodo's compassion was leading up to the moment of confrontation at the Sammath Naur then this makes this different take on Frodo's heroism all the more interesting; it is only at the point where possession of The Ring is truly at stake that compassion turns to anger. Gollum of course has been almost (but not necessarily completely) possessed by The Ring, whereas Frodo has to this point remained relatively unpossessed. Right at the end, both are suddenly utterly possessed and the compassion that has got them there flies out of the window as they fight for The Ring. So it's fascinating that at this point Sauron's influence is so strong and yet it is overcome, by fate or just chance?

To me the fact that Gollum came back at this stage is not only integral to the story, but perfectly fits with Gollum's character and personality, and I agree, Gollum cannot be called a Deus ex machina.

Originally Posted by Essex

1/ Gwahair could well have kept the Ring for himself, just like Gandalf would have - the temptation would have been too great. These birds aren't the normal flap your wings, eat food, and die variety - They are sentient beings. So, they couldn't give the Ring to the Eagles.

This is another very interesting idea worth exploring. I suppose it depends upon whether the Eagles are sentient or even if they can be counted as Maiar. Either way, I think it's right that for them to take The Ring would have been incredibly risky. Could we imagine Gandalf marching into Mordor with The Ring? Not only would that have attracted attention and all hell would have been unleashed, but for him to have the Ring would have been almost as bad as Saruman or Sauron having it. I honestly think that the only way to get The Ring there was to have it sneaked in.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Kelvars with souls presents a host of problems; their fea must come from Eru also (no vala is capable of creating spirits); now animals arrived in Arda before even the elves (creatures "old and strong") - so incarnate fear would be allowed to awaken before the elves, but dwarves can't? And we are also told the Children of Eru (men and elves) are the creator's own addition to the music - if animals have souls, then they too are an addition, but no one is looking forward to/over them (only poor Radagast ), no one is seeking rule over them and there is no mention of them in the Ainulindale.

This problem only arises if the Great Eagles, Huan, et al are 'simply' animals. If they are incarnate Maiar it doesn't. It seems to me that it is perhaps a question not of whether they possess fea (a 'spirit'), which it would seem they do, as they are technically sentient (they are conscious, can think, suffer, feel pain, etc), but whether they possess sana (mind) ie, whether they are self conscious & have a 'soul'. In M-e a rational being seems to be tri-partite (a division into three again!) - fea-sana-hroa.

The idea that the Great Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax, Roac, etc have no sana doesn't stand up. The idea that along with Orcs & Trolls they are merely 'machines' doesn't work. If Morgoth (& later Sauron?) is simply supplying their motivating force simply begs the question 'Who is supplying the motivating force of the Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax (& why does Gandalf refer to Shadowfax as his 'friend', or Legolas refer to Arod in the same way?. A Wizard & an Elf would not refer to a 'robot' as a friend).

I think the simplest explanation is that (in M-e at least) most animals are made up of fea & hroa, but some also have sana as well. Whether sana is gifted to certain animals by Eru is another question.

[Elu Ancalime]

[QUOTE]=Nogrod
Well. That's always the good question: if someone knows your choice beforehand, is it a real choice anymore? And why would some God let her creations to choose badly anyhow? What would be the point? She would anyhow know beforehand, who would be "guessing" right, and who would not, so predeterming everything anyhow?[/QUOTE]


Well, even if they knew the choice, they didnt have to influence it. Like, we all (should have known) that Kuru would do what he did at the end of Survivor: The Hobbit but nobody really made him do it.

Also thats what I think. ITs just a mix. Because what does it matter to Eru anyhow? Arda will become Healed in the End, so when you know the Beginning and you know the End, does what happen in the Middle really matter to him?
________
Yamaha xv250

[AragornII]

Originally posted by alatar

I think the reason Gollum is associated with D E M is not the character, per se, but the 'push.' Gollum reclaims the Ring, his only goal and desire for the whole trilogy, and just when he does...whoops! Into the lava he falls. That is the D E M moment, as I understand it.

From Merriam-Webster Online:

a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome; a person or thing that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and contrives a solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.

Looking at this defintion, and the one I used, both of us are right, in my opinion. Gollum was a person that was sudden and unexpected and solved the problem of destorying the Ring, so by this defintion, he is a D E M.