Alternate "Hiding the Ring" strategies

[Tuor of Gondolin]

While Elrond (or Gandalf?) dismissed the ocean
solution (presumably on the suggestion of
JRRT) it has some merits. Wouldn't Ulmo,
one of the most (the most?) committed to
Middle-earth vala, have had an interest in safeguarding it?

Another thought. If the "good guys" had gotten
control of Orthanc could it have been sealed there
(covering the top entrance with more orthanc rock
and barring windows with orthanc rock?

And there seems to be a strong element of natural
fractiousness among the bad guys (remember the
two orcs in Mordor thinking of the "good old days"
and musing on becoming freelancers after a bad guy win
against Gondor. But more fundamental is an underlying
philosophy that i see in Tolkien's Middle-earth that
Iluvatar would not permit a permanent Sauron taking
over Middle-earth (areas could be dominating, as in the
Second Age, but eventually there would be a redressing of
Middle-earth ills).

More later.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Farael

But even then, Sauron would have probably taken over Middle Earth anyhow.

Isn't this rather the point. They might have hidden the Ring. They might even have been able to do so securely. But it would not have prevented Sauron defeating the Free Peoples militarily.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

But more fundamental is an underlying philosophy that i see in Tolkien's Middle-earth that Iluvatar would not permit a permanent Sauron taking over Middle-earth

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

Actually, I factor that in. The view is what some perceive as Tolkien's
pre-Christian Christian philosophy, and it involves free will. Allowing
free will necessitates bad/evil things happening/being enacted by
"bad guys". To allow this while still not permitting it to permanently
pervert God's/Eru's design/music means that poor decisions (Feanor)
evil acts (Morgoth) do have effects, sometimes long-lasting,
but that eventually actions will be taken to redress the
balance, but there will still be great damage done. Think of Eru's
comments when Morgoth tried to take over the music of the Ainur.
And I can't find the quote now, but someone says (Gandalf?)
something like "It cannot be as though evil never was."
Also recall the longterm, permanent damage done to Ea by the
struggle between Morgoth and the Valar which left it permanently
marred, yet still essentially intact.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

I warrant that the best place to hide anything would be in the midst of the debate that this is about to spark off....

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Isn't this rather the point. They might have hidden the Ring. They might even have been able to do so securely. But it would not have prevented Sauron defeating the Free Peoples militarily.

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

Yes, I think that even if they did hide it, then Sauron would have killed off everyone anyway, and the Ring would be prolonged even further from being destroyed, and more people would die than was needed.

[Valier]

Interesting. I don't know about the Island... you say Saron/minnions are afraid of water. Or that Sauron would ride a Nazgul. I think this unlikely, but I do think he would send someone or thing to go get it for him.How about if "we" threw it in the ocean...deep...do you think that might work?

[Elu Ancalime]

Well, I think besides the warning from gandalf: (Something like) Lands change and there are many beasts unknown...blah blah saying stuff can make it come back. In a more specific example, Deagol found it after so many years under some mud in the Anduin. Whop knows? Pearl divers from Lindon? But in any case, I think the Wise would rather know where its going and how they could get it back if they needed to. If it was thrown in the middle of the Sea, it would take forver to get it back. Considor: With modern technology, it might take months or even years to find a sunken pirate ship. Without that technology or size.....it would be completley thwoing the Ring away, moreso than Boromir and Corrupted Co. would say than sending it to Mordor with a halfling.
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[Essex]

But the Ring would play on the minds of the People who threw the Ring away in the first place.

It's 'calling' would almost certainly have people hunting for it, even though it might be generations of Men later.

It would still rot away in the Elfs' minds, chipping away at their resilience against it year after year........

and myths and legends of the Ring would still abound, hundreds of years later.

So by hiding the Ring they are leaving the hard work up to their Children to fix the issue.

A bit like Global Warming for example. Oh don't worry about that, we'll fix it later when we know for certain whether it'll ruin the Planet or not. We'll probably be OK, it's just our children and their children, with the majority of them living on or near a Coastline who will be deluged. They can fix it or move inland and start all over again......

(sorry to bring politics into it, but I think Global Warming is our 'Ring' we have to deal with....)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In a more specific example, Deagol found it after so many years under some mud in the Anduin. Whop knows? Pearl divers from Lindon?

Rats. I forgot about that. Although I've thought that a reason (surprisingly missed
by JRRT) for the nazgul fear of going over water was the influence of the
vala there.

But one point above about the Ring's existence gnawing on elves and men's
greediness/desire for power. What if Gandalf
had had Frodo immediately head west to dispose of the ring without
elves, men, bad wizards, etc. (other then Gollum) being aware of it?
Gandalf could borrow a boat from Cirdan without specifying why.

Then get Ulmo to set up a cordon sanitaire.