Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Shelob]

Speaking as an all-powerful mod who witnessed this I must say that I could easily see both sides of the secret message issue...however so far as that went it took everything in my power not to post a general "Are you people CRAZY? Saucepan Man's a WOLF, don't trust him!" Once I got over that reaction I must say I didn't see any need for limiting the use of similar messages. It just didn't seem practical because I could clearly see how they were not a one sided deal.

True, the messages stated that a player was innocent. However the player wasn't. If Sauce hadn't told Nilp he was innocent through the message he may have been more serious suspected. The messages work both ways, they could harm wolves if all the innocents were going around saying "Look at me, I'm not a wolf!" but then again it could just as easily be a message which saves a wolf.


Given that the secret messages are basically just an evolution of the point of the game it seems to me that the bigger, perhaps deeper, issue here is the evolution of this game and it's players. Nilpaurion and Saucepan Man had used similar secret messages before, they could recognize them when they saw them and could then use the messages to influence their play. Others could not. When the WereWolf Junior games started many "senior" players stressed that the games should not be considered "junior" and "senior" but rather simply two sides of the same thing. Certainly no one would argue that all new players must play x-number of WWJ games before moving onto the full Tol-in-Gaurhoth version, just as any experienced player is not restricted from WWJ games.

If we wish to consider the use or restriction of secret messages I think we need to consider the "junior" and "senior" issue again. Ignoring the obvious/not-obvious natures of various secret messages (I caught acrostics all but instatnly but didn't catch anagrams until they were pointed out, simply because acrostics are easier for me and, so far as I'm concerned, more "obvious"), anyway, ignoring that the only way a player will catch the messages is if they're familiar with the previous use of similar messages. Littleman Poet wasn't expecting messages to be passed in such a way because he hadn't seen something like it before and so he was indignent when he learned of it, but would anyone say that he must be restricted to WWJ games because he hasn't got enough expierience? I should hope not.


I will not say that that is the only way to look at this, I will not even say that it is, in truth, even anywhere near the most important way. I simply bring it up because to me if one will argue that "secret messages" are against the spirit of the game one must really question what will and will not be allowed. A game in which no one but gifteds can leave hints will leave the gifteds glaringly obvious. To avoid that a game in which no one can leave hints defeats the purpose, a player would have to spend more time editing their posts to ensure that there is not phrasing or accidental suggestion that they are innocent and wouldn't be able to really focus on finding wolves. And what would you have to work form in such a case anyway, a voting record? Any player who has played at least one game will argue that a voting record tells you very little on it's own, to find wolves one must look not only at the record but also at what everyone has said, if all people can say is "Shelob's vote looks suspicious" you are still working from only the voting record, it's just been dressed up a bit.

I still wish to hear from Littleman Poet, it may be I have misinterrpreted his reasons for not wanting the hinting and if that's the case it may be my argument is not relevent to the issue at hand. However I felt it should be said, what's at stake here isn't "was that cheating?" it's how we wish to see the game played in the future. Go look at the first game, it varies hugely from how games now are played but I don't think anyone would claim that it is wrong. The game has just evolved since then, and it evolves with each new game, each combination of players, and the conclusions we draw from each new Death.

I hope that it either makes sense or helps (preferably both, in reality), but even if it doesn't...

[littlemanpoet]

Initially I had felt betrayed..... but that was based on the assumption that Lhuna, Nilp, & SPM were all innocents, holding secrets from a fellow innocent (me ). More fool me, it never occurred to me until I "poofed", that just maybe SPM was a werewolf after all, like I had hunched at the very beginning. Once I accepted that possibility, my view on "codes" changed. As SPM has said, they are no more a sure sign of honesty than anything else written in posts. Therefore, it's a moot issue. So I agree. Let 'em stand. Any innocents who get caught out by werewolves (who already know who's innocent anyway) have merely played into the werewolves' hands, and so much the worse for them.

A side issue for me had been, "why on earth would some innocents want to keep secrets from other innocents?" Here's my point: some of us, when innocents, ain't that great at reading codes, anagrams, and what-not. Any innocents who convey crucial information through codes, run the risk of some fellow innocents not getting it. But that doesn't mean there ought to be a rule against it. Either you're just playing around and it doesn't really matter, or you're running the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face. So code away all you want, gifteds and innocents .... this particular player is not likely to figure it out when he's innocent, and will probably be clued in by fellow werewolves when he's a werewolf. So have at it.

[mormegil]

I'm glad to see that most of us are in agreement on this issue. As I noted in the game I actually didn't believe Nilp based on his anagram and I should actually have seen SpM playing off that a lot to gain Nilp's confidence, and it worked. But I don't see that a 'senior' or 'junior' player issue is of any consequence. In partiuclar these anagrams were there for everyone to see and decipher, if you had the patience. Speaking of which I didn't decipher all of them and would like to know what they all said. I picked up on the majority but not all.

Next game? Perhaps...depends on timing and some other issues. I don't want to continually take up a spot if there are other. I think I've been in the most games overall ...if not me than SpM

[Farael]

On Secret codes:

Even though I was slightly bummed out at the fact that I am not good for anagrams, I don't mind them as long as they are out there for everyone to see.

On the coming up game:

Nilp, you know you can already count on me for it.... as for occupation, even though I'm tempted of actually being the town's Nilp, I wouldn't want to seem to be doing a parody of your antics.... thus, I shall be the town's "Escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a cronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories" (the second part allowing me to go after Aiwendil again if he decides to play )

Looking forward to being able to satisfy my WW addiction some more.

[Lhunardawen]

SpW and Aiwendil...you liars!

It's odd, but I'm inclined to believe that those who used anagrams and such to express their innocence are actually telling the truth. Most likely it's because any sane person wouldn't go to such lengths to tell a lie, but apparently making an anagram isn't such a hard thing to do for our two lycans above.

So I guess I should consider myself warned from next game on.

Nilp, come on...I'm burning with excitement! Tell us what you have planned!

[Formendacil]

First of all, let me put down my name as a player for Nilp's game. Cannot miss this one!

Next, moving on the Secret Codes issue, which I have thus far refrained from commenting on:

As noted in private conversations to various persons, I have no issue with secret messages. I've never used them, myself, and if I did, I'd probably be a Wolf when doing so. I've also never been inclined to trust them. Nilp and SPM both had my trust this last game (for better or worse) because of the way they voted. The hidden message stuff I ignore completely. What else do you expect them to say? "I'm a Wolf, Nilp." "Yeah, me too."

Honestly...

However, I wish to go on the record now, since I was unwilling to do so earlier, that I was most irritated and displeased at the irrational and immature behaviour that arose when LMP discovered something new. Sorry, LMP, I hold you in high regard normally, but your behaviour smacked of "well, if we can't play it my way, I'm not playing".

I was most disappointed.

As regards the future, perhaps notice should be served in Game-Opening posts that secret messages of any sort are a part of the game, and that taking them seriously is something the player does at their own risk.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

This has nothing to do with anagrams, sorry to interrupt.

Originally Posted by morm

I think I've been in the most games overall

Well, now that you mentioned it...

A while ago I started to suspect that I'm kind of addicted to Werewolfing, and I did a little research about how bad the situation was. It was such a relief to discover that the results weren't that alarming and I certainly wasn't alone with my addiction.

Most enthusiastic WWers:

Top 3

1. 13 games
- mormegil (18, 17, 15, 14, 12, 11, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1)

2. 12 games
- Kath (18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 9, 7, 6, 5, 4, WWJ 3)

3. 9 games
- Anguirel (18, 13, 12, 10, 4, 2, 1, WWJ 5, WWJ 3 + mod 15)
- Eomer (18, 15, 12, 11, 7, 6, 4, 2, WWJ 3 + mod 3)
- Gil (18, 17, 16, 11, 10, 9, 8, 6, WWJ 5)
- Holby (18, 14, 9, 6, 5, 3, 2, WWJ 5, WWJ 2 + mod 11)
- Sauce (18, 17, 15, 14, 11, 9, 8, 3, 1 + mod 2)
- spawn (18, 17, 15, 14, 10, 8, 7, 4, 2 + mod 13)
- Wayne (17, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9, WWJ 3, WWJ 2, WWJ 1)


If I've counted someone's games wrong or if someone should be in the list but isn't, please correct me. In addition there's a huge amount of people with 6-8 games in their account.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I wish to go on the record now, since I was unwilling to do so earlier, that I was most irritated and displeased at the irrational and immature behaviour that arose when LMP discovered something new. Sorry, LMP, I hold you in high regard normally, but your behaviour smacked of "well, if we can't play it my way, I'm not playing".

I was most disappointed.

I appreciate your honesty, Formy. And I think that you are quite right. Such antics will not be seen from me again in Werewolf, or out of it. There were more reasonable ways of handling such issues. Please accept my apologies. It's just a game and things within the game should not be taken personally, because that's not how they're meant. I hope I've learned that lesson .... yet again.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Next game? Perhaps...depends on timing and some other issues. I don't want to continually take up a spot if there are other. I think I've been in the most games overall ...if not me than SpM

I didn't seem to make the list Nilp made which is okay. I'm willing to fill in if you have a vacant slot but I'm fine with sitting too...as Spawn pointed out I'm too great an addict and should give it a break, though Kath will be catching me.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Vzv, there are three immediate death rules you need to remember (forgot to post them yesterday . . . )

~ Except during DAY 1, an unexcused absence means immediate elimination. By 'excused' I mean previously mentioned in this thread. If you go absent for a reason unforeseeable (meaning you didn't post a reason prior to the absence), make sure it's a really good reason and the Mod God will decide your fate.

~ Three no-votes = death. No excuses.

~ Three DAYs of absence, excused or not = death. C'mon, Three DAYs, that's like half the game!

As for the players:

Female

1. dancing spawn of ungoliant - laundress
2. Kath
3. Lhunardawen
4. Caranlondien
5. tar-ancalime - witch
6. Cailín
7. Celuien - psychiatrist
8. Naria - midwife
9. Valier
10. Lalaith - rich young widow
11. Thinlómien

Male

11. Garin
12. Formendacil
13. littlemanpoet
14. Glirdan
15. Farael - escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a chronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories
16. Anguirel - wood-madman
17. Eomer
18. Gurthang - arrowsmith
19. the guy who be short - Nilp fan, stalker and impersonator and fisherman
20. Eonwe
21. SamwiseGamgee (I just had to fit him in! )

Times poll:

(NOTE: I'm moving the second option half an hour later--on Tuesdays and Fridays by 8am GMT I'm just leaving class.)

5:30 am - tar-an, Gurthang, daga'y, Naria, Samwise

8:30 am - Lhuna, Farael, Cailín, Ang, Form, Lalaith

The others need to chip in their choices.

Post-traumatic possum: I would like to ask: Does a mod need be invisible?

[Naria]

I'll be a mid-wife going ever so slightly mad with each birth!

[Farael]

I love it how insanity seems to be spreading around..... is it Nilp's influence? is it the fact that players have finally caught up on the interesting theory that by being always random you are likely to survive day 1? (but conversely, not make it past day 3)