Survivor: The Second Age

[Anguirel]

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

See the Silmarillion Survivor for an example of how a completely and openly skewed moderator can actually add some sense of purpose to the game...I hope...

[Lalaith]

You know, much as I love them, this sort of thing is exactly how the Cavaliers constructed their own demise. If only they'd stayed writing nice poetry, and wearing pretty clothes, all right-thinking people would have stayed on-side. But when they started fooling around with the democratic process....

[Lhunardawen]

In any case, let's get on with it.

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

[Anguirel]

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it. He has now done so. In his position, admittedly, I would have revealed the criteria, but what's done is done and we shouldn't muck about with evictions. I speak as one who mourns the loss of the valiant, atypical King Oropher, and would have tried to prevent it had I not been enjoying a very fine supper.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

Persecution of Elves is no longer demographically justifiable on the slightest of grounds. The Elendili hold the lead easily.

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way, where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Then why are you playing a game where a democratic vote decides who goes? Because that is what the game of Survivor is. Nowhere in the initial post did Form detail any of this stuff about to-count-or-not-to-count, it was of course only when phantom challenged someone's vote (Elu's, to be precise) that the first set of guidelines was stated, and the moderator hasn't even followed those.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it.

Well if you'll read the post, and read my above post, you'll see that his warnings and actions haven't matched up. Besides, doing something if "he feels like it" means that only he ever actually knows exactly how the game is being played. Which does indeed makes him all powerful, and power corrupts.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

And again, I'll say that pure-Tolkien-based rationale belongs in The Books, not a Mirth game based on a TV Game that in its very nature requires something more complicated, especially when this "only Tolkien all the time" attitude has been a new development over the course of the game and has not always been followed. Khamul. Camel.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

I shall wait to see what the morrow brings.

[littlemanpoet]

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

[Firefoot]

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason.

This is the part that confused me the most. I completely fail to see where any line can be drawn through the votes that were made for Oropher. So even though I did vote for Oropher, I see no logicality and fairness to the way the votes were counted. The reasoning behind the votes for Oropher were hardly better than those for Elrond, so why were so many more of the Elrond votes discounted? I think if Formen is going to be selective, he needs to be objective...

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule.

Has it occurred to you that we don't know the names of most of the wives of "great lords"? Elendil's wife, for example, is a complete mystery.

The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband.

Unlike the bigoted murdering culture-crushing hubristic Elendil. His wife was just his chattel...

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

I would draw the line at the right to make the game completely pointless if the fancy strikes. If his power is that absolute I will simply leave the game -- it's the only sure course of action for us little people to take. But the reason, make no mistake, will be because I no longer think the game worth playing.

I would like to remind people of this post made earlier in the thread. In it, Form lays out the revised rules, which seem to me too ambivalent, but I will go with them for now.

Originally Posted by Form

This is, don't forget, a Tolkien-based game. So, I would like to see, if possible, some reasoning, preferably Tolkien-based, no matter how illogical or distorted, to accompany your votes.

It says "preferably" Tolkien-based, but not "most-definitely", and it says "no matter how illogical or distorted" so that means reasonings related to a game-play strategy are admissible.

So let us review today's votes, taking the stated criteria for "rationale" into play:

Morm kicked things off with a vote for Elrond citing personality faults. 1 for Elrond.

Ang followed up with a vote for Sauron, citing his inferiority to the Witch-King. 1 for Sauron.

Spawn reiterated her detailed attack on Elrond from the day before. 2 for Elrond.

Kuru voted for Cirdan citing his too-long stay in Middle-earth. 1 for Cirdan.

Tour voted for Cirdan, citing his beard. 2 for Cirdan.

I came along and took stock of the situation, found a tie needing to be broken, and after some thought found the contestants pretty equally matched. Because I still thought the tie ought to be broken, I used the reasoning that I did not approve of certain of Elrond's supporters' actions. 3 for Elrond.

Eonwe kickstarted the Oropher vote, citing the character's lack of oomph and criticizing the reasons for the voting thus far. 1 for Oropher

Estel voted for Elrond, citing good arguments by Spawn and others. 4 for Elrond

Celuian voted for Oropher, agreeing with Eonwe. 2 for Oropher.

Elu voted for Elrond, citing his lack of manliness, and also a desire to protect Cirdan and Oropher. 5 for Elrond

Kuru changed his vote to Elrond, citing a desire to matter in the vote tally, which I grant could or could not be taken to mean he agreed with the reasons of those against Elrond. 1 for Cirdan, 6 for Elrond.

Gil-Galad voted for Anarion, citing a long held vendetta against the character. 1 for Anarion.

He then made a deal with Kuru to cast a vote against Elrond in return for future support against Anarion. To me, this falls under the same reasoning as why he wants Anarion gone (which I am assuming has been stated earlier, correct me if I'm wrong). 0 for Anarion, 7 for Elrond.

LMP cast a vote for Narvi, citing various Tolkien-based reasons. 1 for Narvi.

Jenny voted Amandil, for being dense. 1 for Amandil.

phantom voted Oropher, citing unworthiness due to obscurity. 3 for Oropher.

lord voted Oropher, citing the fact that Phantom ordered him to, lest he be spanked. Oops, I mean, he agreed with Phantom. 4 for Oropher.

Firefoot voted Oropher, citing uselessness. 5 for Oropher.

Final vote count? 7 for Elrond, 5 for Oropher, 1 for Cirdan, 1 for Sauron, 1 for Narvi, and 1 for Amandil.

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason. So out of the votes I listed above, which 5 were completely devoid of any reasoning at all? Remember, Form officially only said that complete Tolkien-based reasoning was "preferable" not "mandatory".

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason.

The only fair and open deductions I can see were perhaps Kuru and lord, though those are also rather debatable. This would bring the count to 6 for Elrond and 4 for Oropher. If you are to discount the votes of both Kuru and Gil-Galad, and keep Lord's vote, it still comes out to a TIE of 5 and 5 votes each, meaning both should go. If you discount Estel, you are making the rather broad assumption that even though he cited Spawn's reasoning, he didn't actually truly agree. If you discount me, you declare my reasoning invalid simply because it was not purely Tolkien, which I say ought not to be mandatory.

Anyway, I believe my case is now not only rested, but beaten brutally and thoroughly to death, and pushing up daises. RIP.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason.

Sorry, just replying to this as I go through the thread counting votes...

Under the system of "a vote cast is a vote counted", one can skim a thread pretty quick when counting votes. It seems that I miscounted on the original tally, since I trust your accounting here to be accurate.

It's entirely possible that if you went back to Day 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatnot, you'd find a similar mistake. I'm very much human, and I probably missed someone's vote in the tallying.

My apologies. Nobody's vote was disqualified under the "a vote case is a vote counted" system.