Survivor: The Second Age

[Elu Ancalime]

I dont know if this is Tolkien based but

++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron to give GG time to fall back, perhaps.
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[the phantom]

Originally Posted by SPM

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune.

Elrond did his share of running around commanding part of Gil-galad's forces, but yes, he did take the time to set up a refuge. That same refuge later became the center of healing, lore, and wisdom in all of Middle-Earth. And Elrond picked a good spot. From Rivendell, he was able to provide a stopping place for travelers preparing to tackle the Misty Mts, or a resting place for people who had already come over them. He was in a decent place to exchange messages with Lothlorien and keep the roads clear of evil when necessary.

Also remember that without Elrond, there would be no Aragorn. The heirs of Isildur and their possesions were preserved in Rivendell throughout the years. And the only reason the Ring was able to escape the Nazgul was because of Elrond and his refuge in Rivendell, so don't dare criticize Elrond for taking the time to set up Rivendell. He was doing exactly what was necessary, possibly as a result of his powers of foresight.

Also, remember how accepting Elrond was. Gimli had trouble getting into Lothlorien- dwarves didn't ever go there. In Elrond's house, however, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits were all welcome. A vote against Elrond is a vote for racism.

Originally Posted by SPM

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring.

Oh, come on. No one, even Manwe, could've convinced Isildur to destroy the Ring. That was its power.

Originally Posted by SPM

I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations

I do NOT have a stranglehold on this game. One of my very favorites, Ar-Pharazon, got evicted on the first day. Once that happened, any chance of getting my way in this game was gone.

Originally Posted by SPM

Surely, Ang, you recognise that neither Feanor nor his sons would have approved.

From my point of view, that's the best reason you have, Sauce. As you know I am a huge Feanor-lover, and you are right that Feanor, who always did precisely what was necessary, probably wouldn't have done what Elrond did. But, perhaps Elrond had the correct approach for the time in which he lived. Feanor was meant for another time and situation, so though Elrond didn't act like Feanor, it is completely possible that he took the correct course of action.

Originally Posted by SPM

In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples?

Yes, he did. And the reason was because the males were the warriors, and so killed other beings, and the ability of elves to heal was diminished by the taking of life. For Elrond to reach the amazing level of healing expertise he had, he had to abstain from slaying in battle. But, let me remind you, he didn't really do that until the Third Age. In the Second Age, he was still running around fighting. It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.

Originally Posted by Ang

One of the most interesting things about Elrond is that he isn't King of Rivendell, or even often Lord. He usually sticks to Master...a title on about Sam's level. This shows a good dose of humility and plenty of wisdom

I agree. By right, he could have declared himself King of the Noldorin and Sindarin elves, but he never tried to. He simply did what should be done, and didn't worry about grabbing wealth and power for himself.

Originally Posted by Ang

By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.

That's right!

Originally Posted by SPM

Actually the eviction of Elrond will strike a blow against insupportedly (sic) large egos, as it will rile the phantom.

Perhaps the reason my ego is so out of control is because my whole life I've seen the way humble people like Elrond are treated by folks like you and your fellow Elrond voters. Ever think of that?

By supporting Elrond, you will perhaps be encouraging me to curb my ego, and respect Elrond even more than I do.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron

The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him. It was only when Sauron himself came forward that Gil-galad died, and that was his choice. Like his grandfather Fingolfin, who chose to confront Morgoth, and like Theoden who seeked out the leader of the Haradrim on the battlefield, Gil-galad and Elendil made the choice to fight the leader of their foe. It was a chieftain's duel. Elrond would've been wrong to interfere. It's obvious that he was willing to, as it was he and Cirdan alone of the elves that stood beside Gil-galad in that contest when all else had fled.

When I look at the list of candidates, I only see maybe five who should be able to challenge Elrond. I think it's silly that he's a candidate this early.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world, the greatest loremaster in the world, protected the line of kings for an age, crafted the plan and Fellowship that would save the world from Sauron, and controlled a river to boot.

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by tp

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?

[the phantom]

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?

I suppose. What has she done besides keep a garden? Besides, I'm a bit allergic to several different types of trees, weeds, and grass, so chances are I'm allergic to ents. I won't vote until later though- after work.

[the phantom]

but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing?

Firstly, Elrond's sons could have chosen not to go to the Black Gate. They came as messangers to Minas Tirith bringing Elrond's council (which was perfect, by the way), but after that they could've left. They aren't children. They chose to stand with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the other free peoples. Also, I imagine that Elrond had some amount of faith that things would turn out for the best.

Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue

Yes, it was.

again Elrond let's others do the work for him

At that point, it was no longer his work to fight and slay. He rightly allowed his sons to go, and focused on doing his part, which was healing his wife when she returned. A fine mess Middle Earth would've been in had Elrond not focused on his healing powers, and so rendered himself unable to stop Frodo's Morgul knife wound from turning him into a wraith.

[Diamond18]

A count of the votes-so-far reveals:

Elrond: 3

Fimbrethil: 2

Tar-Miriel: 1

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few. I am a fan of Fimbrethil, little though there is to know about her. Clearly, though, she (and the other entwives) were independent women. It rather annoys me, actually, that their sex is defined by their relationship to the Ents. What, were there no single Ent-females? How would us human females feel if we were known exclusively as Manwives? No wonder they left their controlling husbands behind. As Lal so efficiently stated, imagine being married to Fangorn.

Therefore I am stating that I will forthwith vote however I need to in order to keep Fimbrethil in the game for as long as possible.

Form, I'm a little unclear on one point, I realize. Is it sufficiently Tolkien-reasoned to cast a vote for one charater to save another, if one's reasons for saving said other character are suffciently Tolkien-based? I.E., is sparing Fimbrethil enough excuse to vote against anyone else?

Just in case it is not, I am going to express some opinion on the ongoing debate about Elrond. I find the points about him letting his sons do most of the work, and declaring who may marry his daughter (and when) to be rather convincing. I had actually forgotten about his dealings in the Arwen matter (clouded as they are by the movie version, I fear). One might say he was exceedingly kind to let Aragon marry Arwen at all -- but I say piffles. Arwen was not a child and therefore he had no right to say anything about whoever and whenever she chose to marry. That's just more males controlling the females, and like Fimbrethil, I say I can do without, thankyouverymuch.

And then of course there are the tra la la lally's down in the valley.

I cast a vote for Elendil earlier, being confused about who had been evicted. Since he's not even a contestant anymore maybe I don't need to do this, but just for clarity's sake:

- - Elendil

+ + Elrond

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few.

Now, now, I'm all in favour of gender equality, but to enforce patronising positive discrimination is to practically clamour for your chains. True feminists should eject unworthy examples like the donna mobile who was Fimbrethil.

As for the Manwives point-a simple matter of etymology. "Wife" means, at root, "woman". It is only culture that has given it its sense of "man's woman". There could very well have been single Ent-wives.

[Boromir88]

It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.

Well phantom I will have to go against you on Elrond. Now yes, Elladan and Elrohir were very capable fighters...but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing?

The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him.

He did a fine job of protecting his own wife. Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue...again Elrond let's others do the work for him.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world

He did a fine job healing his wife, she ended up leaving...don't blame the gal either.