Relative Powers

[littlemanpoet]

Formendacil, I acceed to your well made points until they are proven false by yet greater efforts at erudition. I must say that I find it hard to countenance Túrin and individual Elves as above Ents, but, well, these were singular Elves, now, weren't they?

Eonwe, I appreciate your opinion, but I need some evidence before I'll make an alteration.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Tulkas
Aulë
Lorien
-
-
-
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
-
Sauron
-
Witch King of Angmar
-
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast
-
Túrin Turambar
-
Fëanor
-
Finrod Felagund
-
Glorfindel
-
-
Ent
Troll
-
Shelob
-
Beleg

-
Elf
Uruk hai
Warg
Human
Dwarf
Orc
Gollum
Goblin
Hobbit
Spider

[Bêthberry]

I suppose you assume Tolkien is extraneous to Middle-earth, otherwise you would have started your list with him?

And the eagles would be placed where?

[Glirdan]

Just got a question. What about the other Vala?? Where's Mandos and Yavanna?? Because they are of greater power then Lorien. If I'm correct, Yavanna is the second highest Valier, is she not? And Aulë, Ulmo and Mandos were of all greater power then Tulkas.

As for Hobbit, I think they deserve a place higher then Goblin's. After all, Bullroarer did invent a game after knocking off the head of a goblin. I also think that they should be in between Orc and Dwarf because of their feats, even if they were few.

I believe that Ungoliant deserves a place higher up. After all, she did almost kill Morgoth.

I can't think of anything else other than the remianig Valar (Vana, Nessa, etc.) and they all do deserve a high place. They are Valar.

Oh, wait!! I've just remembered a few Maiar. Eonwe, Osse and Uinen all deserve a place in there for being a few of the Maiar named.

Wow, that's a lot!! Well, take what you want. After all, it is your list.

[Raynor]

Earendil slew Ancalagon the black, Thorondor marred Melkor's face, Echtelion killed the lord of the balrongs, Eonwe was the mightiest in arms in all Arda, Hurin was the "mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men". In the second prophecy of Mandos, Turin is said to kill Melkor, so let's give him some more credit .

[Anguirel]

Oh, this is a real sweetshop of a thread. You know it's bad for you, but you have to indulge in it nonetheless...

Putting Turin above Feanor is nothing short of preposterous! I'd put him back where he was, on about Beleg's level. Some reference to him being Adanedhel and Elf-like in prowess wouldn't justify him being cabable of beating Feanor in his wrath, who faced battalions of Balrogs. And bringing up the Dagor Dagorath is just eschatological and odd. Our description of it is vague and mucked up.

I'd also put Maedhros and Fingolfin, in that order, above Feanor (though admitting Fingolfin's place hurts); though a genius and a great artist, I don't think Feanor was necessarily the best warrior of the Eldar-except with words and will-are we factoring that in?

Hurin I would put...above Glorfindel but below Finrod. Actually, Beleg should be above Glorfindel too. Glorfindel had pretty hair and was brave and nice, but Beleg was the best tracker in the world, could find his way around the Girdle, turned up to the Nirnaeth and survived, and could definitely have beaten the majority of Elves. Remember he was a swordsman as well as an archer...

[narfforc]

And where is Tom Bombadil on the list?

[Lalwendë]

Let me crack open a can of worms. I wonder where and indeed why Ungoliant should be on this list at all. I would argue that she is incredibly difficult to place as she is possibly 'outside' any kind of hierarchy.

there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Un- goliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.

In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.

Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after. There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of Manwe in his highest halls, Melkor with Un-goliant plotted his revenge. But when Ungoliant understood the purpose of Melkor, she was torn between lust and great fear; for she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding. Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser.

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe - this suggests that she was not 'created' and so was outside Eru's creation, but entered his world where she attracted Melkor's attention.

But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness - she is the servant of Melkor which obviously means he has been able to enlist her, but note, he was unable to control her, as she was able to leave his service. He must then win her back with a lie.

she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding. Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' - This suggests that Ungoliant was afraid of the Valar and the Elves, but does this mean they were more powerful than her? Perhaps she feared what they could do en masse? Or maybe she even feared to upset them, knowing she was an 'outsider'? Or was this just fear as she wished to be left alone to live as she needed, feeding off Light?

Ungoliant also clearly thinks that Melkor has the potential to defeat the rest of the Valar; maybe she was convinced by him as she wished rather to be on the winning than losing side if he was to defeat them? Anyway, in terms of power hierarchies, it suggests some fluidity and ambiguity, certainly at that point in the history of Ea.

I think Ungoliant is too difficult to place in such a structure; there is much evidence that she was from outside Ea, and as such was (is?) an independent being. If we take her as a natural complement to Eru, the Darkness or Void to his Light, then we could even see her as comparable in power.

Well, I've finished my main course of worm pie, now for some pudding. I think I'll open another can of nice, sweet, juicy worms...

Where does Tom Bombadil sit on this list? Not to mention Goldberry...



Nice thread, much potential for fisticuffs and duelling. And worms.

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe - this suggests that she was not 'created' and so was outside Eru's creation, but entered his world where she attracted Melkor's attention.

.....

I think Ungoliant is too difficult to place in such a structure; there is much evidence that she was from outside Ea, and as such was (is?) an independent being. If we take her as a natural complement to Eru, the Darkness or Void to his Light, then we could even see her as comparable in power.

I think she was created [Eru is, like God in RL, in Tolkien's world the Creator of all] and was one of the Ainur who stayed (initially in her case, of course) with Eru. Like Tulkas she probably entered Eä later from the Void, where she wandered from the Timeless Halls (much like Melkor). But that's another discussion alltogether, of course

[Earendilyon]

Some thoughts:

* Melkor/Morgoth is a difficult one. If you view the original Melkor, he's on the right place in your hierarchy; but would you view Morgoth at the end of the FA, he would have to end up far lower.
* Ungoliant should be far higher (she ensnared Morgoth!)
* the WiKi between Saruman and Gandalf the Grey
* Túrin below Fëanor
* Ents above named Elves
* Shelob

Where would we put Tom B.?