Relative Powers

[Anguirel]

Oh, this is a real sweetshop of a thread. You know it's bad for you, but you have to indulge in it nonetheless...

Putting Turin above Feanor is nothing short of preposterous! I'd put him back where he was, on about Beleg's level. Some reference to him being Adanedhel and Elf-like in prowess wouldn't justify him being cabable of beating Feanor in his wrath, who faced battalions of Balrogs. And bringing up the Dagor Dagorath is just eschatological and odd. Our description of it is vague and mucked up.

I'd also put Maedhros and Fingolfin, in that order, above Feanor (though admitting Fingolfin's place hurts); though a genius and a great artist, I don't think Feanor was necessarily the best warrior of the Eldar-except with words and will-are we factoring that in?

Hurin I would put...above Glorfindel but below Finrod. Actually, Beleg should be above Glorfindel too. Glorfindel had pretty hair and was brave and nice, but Beleg was the best tracker in the world, could find his way around the Girdle, turned up to the Nirnaeth and survived, and could definitely have beaten the majority of Elves. Remember he was a swordsman as well as an archer...

[narfforc]

And where is Tom Bombadil on the list?

[Lalwendë]

Let me crack open a can of worms. I wonder where and indeed why Ungoliant should be on this list at all. I would argue that she is incredibly difficult to place as she is possibly 'outside' any kind of hierarchy.

there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Un- goliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.

In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.

Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after. There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of Manwe in his highest halls, Melkor with Un-goliant plotted his revenge. But when Ungoliant understood the purpose of Melkor, she was torn between lust and great fear; for she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding. Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser.

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe - this suggests that she was not 'created' and so was outside Eru's creation, but entered his world where she attracted Melkor's attention.

But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness - she is the servant of Melkor which obviously means he has been able to enlist her, but note, he was unable to control her, as she was able to leave his service. He must then win her back with a lie.

she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding. Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' - This suggests that Ungoliant was afraid of the Valar and the Elves, but does this mean they were more powerful than her? Perhaps she feared what they could do en masse? Or maybe she even feared to upset them, knowing she was an 'outsider'? Or was this just fear as she wished to be left alone to live as she needed, feeding off Light?

Ungoliant also clearly thinks that Melkor has the potential to defeat the rest of the Valar; maybe she was convinced by him as she wished rather to be on the winning than losing side if he was to defeat them? Anyway, in terms of power hierarchies, it suggests some fluidity and ambiguity, certainly at that point in the history of Ea.

I think Ungoliant is too difficult to place in such a structure; there is much evidence that she was from outside Ea, and as such was (is?) an independent being. If we take her as a natural complement to Eru, the Darkness or Void to his Light, then we could even see her as comparable in power.

Well, I've finished my main course of worm pie, now for some pudding. I think I'll open another can of nice, sweet, juicy worms...

Where does Tom Bombadil sit on this list? Not to mention Goldberry...



Nice thread, much potential for fisticuffs and duelling. And worms.

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe - this suggests that she was not 'created' and so was outside Eru's creation, but entered his world where she attracted Melkor's attention.

.....

I think Ungoliant is too difficult to place in such a structure; there is much evidence that she was from outside Ea, and as such was (is?) an independent being. If we take her as a natural complement to Eru, the Darkness or Void to his Light, then we could even see her as comparable in power.

I think she was created [Eru is, like God in RL, in Tolkien's world the Creator of all] and was one of the Ainur who stayed (initially in her case, of course) with Eru. Like Tulkas she probably entered Eä later from the Void, where she wandered from the Timeless Halls (much like Melkor). But that's another discussion alltogether, of course

[Thinlómien]

* I'm not sure if all the dragons should be above Sauron. At least I would put Smaug below him.
* The Witch King is placed far too high. If Gandalf could cope with all the nine the same time, he's definitely too high up. Besides he was killed by a human, who wasn't even a great war hero. Thirdly, the rangers were able to drive away the single nazguls. Fourthly he and his 8 fellow buddies were not a match for Aragorn and Glorfindel.

I'm rather interested where Aragorn should be placed on that list.

*I would drop Túrin far lower. He doesn't deserve to be so high up. Wasn't it said that Fëanor was the most powerful of the children of Ilúvatar?
*Shelob should be higher up. It is said about her that no war hero of ancient times could have vanquished her. Or wait... Something like that. I should probably check but I'm too lazy. At least she should be above trolls. I think you overvaluate trolls. Pippin slew one. Tom, Bert and William are surely dangerous, but not more dangerous than Shelob!
*Ang, I disagree about Fingolfin and Maedhros. I'm a fan of Maedhros, but I would put him below Fingolfin and them both below Fëanor. He was maybe a stupid guy, but he was a powerful genious.
*And I would place Gollum above an orc and spider over hobbit. Bilbo was an exceptional hobbit and he had an exceptional ring. An average hobbit is a plump farmer. I don't doubt that a spider is more powerful.

Where would you people place the Ring? That's an interesting question.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Where would you people place the Ring? That's an interesting question.

The Ring could go either near the top or at the bottom.

Top because it has incredible inherent powers and even those as 'strong' as Gandalf and Galadriel would not use it. It also has a lure, and a reputation which may be even stronger than its actual power in terms of 'enslaving' or enrapturing people.

Bottom because all that power could be riding on the reputation of the object - we have seen how it had different effects on different people; perhaps some were more able to disregard the 'hype'? And most importantly, bottom because after all, it was destroyed when a weakened Hobbit lost his footing while prancing about. It's almost a comedy ending (though dark comedy) that this object which meant so much to Sauron was destroyed by a cosmic banana skin!

[Boromir88]

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for lmp, interesting thread you got going here. But to back up what Eonwe said about the WK being lower. I would agree.

Tolkien tells us that the Nazgul's primary weapon is fear, they have no great physical power over the fearless (like Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn...etc) They thrive off of fear, and that's why they can be so powerful, but those who are fearless the Nazgul don't have too much power over. Even when the W-K is granted extra demonic force from Sauron during the Siege of Gondor I still think the WK fled from the gate because Gandalf stood strong at the gate and showed no fear.

So for the W-K, I'm not sure how you worked out the list, but I would put at least Gandalf the White above the Witch-King. So I would put at the least Gandalf the White above the WK. Maybe even Gandalf the Grey, who fought several of the Nazgul on Weathertop.

I don't know if there is a clear hierarchy to this, it may just be getting more confusing. Because I also think Glorfindel can take the W-K anyday, as he drives them into the fords. Being Glorfindel of Gondolin slaying a balrog, and reincarnated as Glorfindel of Rivendell, I think he should also above the WK. Which means do we drop the WK below?

Witch King of Angmar
-
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast
-
-
Fëanor
Glorfindel
Finrod Felagund

You may want to re-order that to:

Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Feanor
Glorfindel
Finrod
Witch-King
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast

It's hard to compare the Istari to the Elves, but if you are going to put a Balrog above the Istari, then I think that group of 3 powerful elves needs to be put above them. Because Glorfindel defeated a Balrog, and I do agree that Feanor in hte hierarchy of things is tougher than Glorfindel.

LMP, I don't think there is a clear cut hierarchy, as I think you can see by now. It's not like there's destinct levels, there are certainly those like the valar who are more powerful than everyone. But for Elves, and Istari, and Maia...etc there's a bunch of tangles if you get what I mean.

Eowyn defeats the WK but I would not put her above a Balrog or any of the Istari, or any human. A lot of factors must be considered. One would be I definitely think the WK needs to be dropped down. Even with Demonic powers granted by Sauron and being the Ruler of the Nazgul he was still once a human and doesn't have much power over the fearless. So, I think he needs to be dropped down, maybe even below a Balrog in the list I made above.

I dropped the WK down so far, because again the "fear factor" and if Glorfindel isn't afraid of the WK then I doubt Feanor or Finrod would be. Especially not Feanor. I hope you can make some sense of this mindless pile of jumbo.

[drigel]

many tangles, but interesting to consider.

Tolkien tells us that the Nazgul's primary weapon is fear

especially for us mortal readers. I would lower the WK even further down than Boro. To the undying, the fear would be from the various poisonous weaponry the WK wielded, and the flying creature that gave an obvious advantage. Also, perhaps, the legions that were usually at his command.

So that leads me to think about something that is not a single person, but an "entity" of one: the Army of the Dead. would that be considered on the list? Big fear factor on that one (at least for mortals).

Also what about my favorite critter: Huan?

[Earendilyon]

Some thoughts:

* Melkor/Morgoth is a difficult one. If you view the original Melkor, he's on the right place in your hierarchy; but would you view Morgoth at the end of the FA, he would have to end up far lower.
* Ungoliant should be far higher (she ensnared Morgoth!)
* the WiKi between Saruman and Gandalf the Grey
* Túrin below Fëanor
* Ents above named Elves
* Shelob

Where would we put Tom B.?