Relative Powers

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe - this suggests that she was not 'created' and so was outside Eru's creation, but entered his world where she attracted Melkor's attention.

.....

I think Ungoliant is too difficult to place in such a structure; there is much evidence that she was from outside Ea, and as such was (is?) an independent being. If we take her as a natural complement to Eru, the Darkness or Void to his Light, then we could even see her as comparable in power.

I think she was created [Eru is, like God in RL, in Tolkien's world the Creator of all] and was one of the Ainur who stayed (initially in her case, of course) with Eru. Like Tulkas she probably entered Eä later from the Void, where she wandered from the Timeless Halls (much like Melkor). But that's another discussion alltogether, of course

[Thinlómien]

* I'm not sure if all the dragons should be above Sauron. At least I would put Smaug below him.
* The Witch King is placed far too high. If Gandalf could cope with all the nine the same time, he's definitely too high up. Besides he was killed by a human, who wasn't even a great war hero. Thirdly, the rangers were able to drive away the single nazguls. Fourthly he and his 8 fellow buddies were not a match for Aragorn and Glorfindel.

I'm rather interested where Aragorn should be placed on that list.

*I would drop Túrin far lower. He doesn't deserve to be so high up. Wasn't it said that Fëanor was the most powerful of the children of Ilúvatar?
*Shelob should be higher up. It is said about her that no war hero of ancient times could have vanquished her. Or wait... Something like that. I should probably check but I'm too lazy. At least she should be above trolls. I think you overvaluate trolls. Pippin slew one. Tom, Bert and William are surely dangerous, but not more dangerous than Shelob!
*Ang, I disagree about Fingolfin and Maedhros. I'm a fan of Maedhros, but I would put him below Fingolfin and them both below Fëanor. He was maybe a stupid guy, but he was a powerful genious.
*And I would place Gollum above an orc and spider over hobbit. Bilbo was an exceptional hobbit and he had an exceptional ring. An average hobbit is a plump farmer. I don't doubt that a spider is more powerful.

Where would you people place the Ring? That's an interesting question.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Where would you people place the Ring? That's an interesting question.

The Ring could go either near the top or at the bottom.

Top because it has incredible inherent powers and even those as 'strong' as Gandalf and Galadriel would not use it. It also has a lure, and a reputation which may be even stronger than its actual power in terms of 'enslaving' or enrapturing people.

Bottom because all that power could be riding on the reputation of the object - we have seen how it had different effects on different people; perhaps some were more able to disregard the 'hype'? And most importantly, bottom because after all, it was destroyed when a weakened Hobbit lost his footing while prancing about. It's almost a comedy ending (though dark comedy) that this object which meant so much to Sauron was destroyed by a cosmic banana skin!

[Boromir88]

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for lmp, interesting thread you got going here. But to back up what Eonwe said about the WK being lower. I would agree.

Tolkien tells us that the Nazgul's primary weapon is fear, they have no great physical power over the fearless (like Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn...etc) They thrive off of fear, and that's why they can be so powerful, but those who are fearless the Nazgul don't have too much power over. Even when the W-K is granted extra demonic force from Sauron during the Siege of Gondor I still think the WK fled from the gate because Gandalf stood strong at the gate and showed no fear.

So for the W-K, I'm not sure how you worked out the list, but I would put at least Gandalf the White above the Witch-King. So I would put at the least Gandalf the White above the WK. Maybe even Gandalf the Grey, who fought several of the Nazgul on Weathertop.

I don't know if there is a clear hierarchy to this, it may just be getting more confusing. Because I also think Glorfindel can take the W-K anyday, as he drives them into the fords. Being Glorfindel of Gondolin slaying a balrog, and reincarnated as Glorfindel of Rivendell, I think he should also above the WK. Which means do we drop the WK below?

Witch King of Angmar
-
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast
-
-
Fëanor
Glorfindel
Finrod Felagund

You may want to re-order that to:

Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Feanor
Glorfindel
Finrod
Witch-King
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast

It's hard to compare the Istari to the Elves, but if you are going to put a Balrog above the Istari, then I think that group of 3 powerful elves needs to be put above them. Because Glorfindel defeated a Balrog, and I do agree that Feanor in hte hierarchy of things is tougher than Glorfindel.

LMP, I don't think there is a clear cut hierarchy, as I think you can see by now. It's not like there's destinct levels, there are certainly those like the valar who are more powerful than everyone. But for Elves, and Istari, and Maia...etc there's a bunch of tangles if you get what I mean.

Eowyn defeats the WK but I would not put her above a Balrog or any of the Istari, or any human. A lot of factors must be considered. One would be I definitely think the WK needs to be dropped down. Even with Demonic powers granted by Sauron and being the Ruler of the Nazgul he was still once a human and doesn't have much power over the fearless. So, I think he needs to be dropped down, maybe even below a Balrog in the list I made above.

I dropped the WK down so far, because again the "fear factor" and if Glorfindel isn't afraid of the WK then I doubt Feanor or Finrod would be. Especially not Feanor. I hope you can make some sense of this mindless pile of jumbo.

[drigel]

many tangles, but interesting to consider.

Tolkien tells us that the Nazgul's primary weapon is fear

especially for us mortal readers. I would lower the WK even further down than Boro. To the undying, the fear would be from the various poisonous weaponry the WK wielded, and the flying creature that gave an obvious advantage. Also, perhaps, the legions that were usually at his command.

So that leads me to think about something that is not a single person, but an "entity" of one: the Army of the Dead. would that be considered on the list? Big fear factor on that one (at least for mortals).

Also what about my favorite critter: Huan?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tolkien tells us that the Nazgul's primary weapon is fear, they have no great physical power over the fearless (like Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn...etc) They thrive off of fear, and that's why they can be so powerful, but those who are fearless the Nazgul don't have too much power over. Even when the W-K is granted extra demonic force from Sauron during the Siege of Gondor I still think the WK fled from the gate because Gandalf stood strong at the gate and showed no fear.

Originally Posted by drigel

especially for us mortal readers. I would lower the WK even further down than Boro. To the undying, the fear would be from the various poisonous weaponry the WK wielded, and the flying creature that gave an obvious advantage. Also, perhaps, the legions that were usually at his command.

So that leads me to think about something that is not a single person, but an "entity" of one: the Army of the Dead. would that be considered on the list? Big fear factor on that one (at least for mortals).

Both great points. I've thought for a long time now that some if not most of the power of the Nazgul resides in their ability to foster fear - especially considering the 'death of the WK prophecy' which helped ensure his scary, untouchable 'power' went before him. And thinking about it, many of the powers of Sauron, from Nazgul to Ruling Rings, are based upon sheer fear.

But if we think about it, fear should actually place the Nazgul and the Ring and other such entities high on a list of 'power', instead of low. Power isn't just about the ability to wield a sword or cast a spell, it's also about the ability to control, and fear is a major weapon in achieving this end - otherwise how could a man who is allegedly hiding in a primitive cave somewhere be causing so many things to happen in the world right now?

[drigel]

like the thread says - it's all relative. It depends on whose perspective you are taking.

Mabye LMP should construct a grid, instead of working in a linear fashion.

Personally, I would place Huan in between Sauron and G the White



edit:

and fear is a major weapon in achieving this end

well, then you would (by the end of the 3rd age at the least) have to put Galadriel on that list, because she was much feared by many non-elvish folk, right? She should at least be up there with the Feanor/Glorfindel group

or perhaps you would have to multiple lines - say for elves, the top would be:
Morgoth
Balrog
Sauron

for humans it would be:
Sauron
WK
Ancalagon

etc