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#1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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like the thread says - it's all relative. It depends on whose perspective you are taking.
Mabye LMP should construct a grid, instead of working in a linear fashion. Personally, I would place Huan in between Sauron and G the White ![]() edit: Quote:
or perhaps you would have to multiple lines - say for elves, the top would be: Morgoth Balrog Sauron for humans it would be: Sauron WK Ancalagon etc ![]() Last edited by drigel; 03-15-2006 at 10:50 AM. |
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#2 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Fenris Penguin
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#3 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In a world grown ever smaller.
Posts: 678
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![]() Actually, are you looking for hard and fast evidences, or are you looking for interpretations of data? An interpretation of data is as follows: Finrod Felegund, as per your list already, is below both Feanor and Glorfindel. Finrod strove with Sauron on Tol-in-Gauthrol and matched him fairly well. Fairly well, though Sauron obviously had the mastery. We can assume, by common sense, that Sauron is quite a ways above the Witch King. And if Finrod is near Sauron, then he is above the Witch King. And so are Feanor and Glorfindel. Also, Glorfindel was said to have slain a Balrog in the sack of Gondolin. Balrogs being what they are, corrupted Maia, no less, I would say that is a considerable feat. I would think Balrog would be above Witch King as well, considering they were the primary servents of Morgoth. Not to mention Gandalf. I think he is a bit of an enigma, considering that he is expressly forbidden to match himself power-for-power against the enemy. I think he would end up quite a bit farther up then you would expect, in a duel. (Remember, Gandalf the Grey is matched against the Balrog after performing the shutting spell, which seems to have weakened him quite a bit.)
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#4 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Running Tally #3
Thanks one and all for a very interesting and robust response to my humble thread. Now for answers to the replies (through Eonwe) so far:
Just a few points. Bullroarer Took was an exceptional Hobbit. So I can place him individually above Goblins, but not your typical Hobbit. Humans apparently have a greater potential than Elves, which is foreshadowed in Ilúvatar's words in the Ainúlindalë; however, the typical Human is far below the typical Elf in relative power. Therefore, Húrin and Túrin can conceivably considered to have attained a higher degree of power than Fëanor. Sorry, Ang. We are factoring in all the primary modes of power, not merely swordsmanship or magic, but will, word of power (closely related to magic, I suppose), and all other such that have an effect upon reality within the confines of Arda. Ang, I need a reason to put Maedhros and Fingolfin above Fëanor. Lalwendë, there is enough in the quoted text to include Ungoliant in the list. The "it is said" bit is a classic Tolkienism that is used to suggest legend and folklore rather than feigned history. Therefore, I'm going to go with the feigned history. One of the presuppositions for this thread is that there is no being that is independent of the creation of Eru. I'm all for worms, fisticuffs, well made points, and corrections backed by evidence to this list. But it being my list, I will make decisions now and then to end certain points of debate, as I did above regarding Ungoliant. It was a very good effort, Lal, but doomed, as it butted its head up against an immutabilty. ![]() Earendilyon: WiKi? Thinlomien: Why put Smaug below Sauron? Does it say that Fëanor was the most powerful? If so, that is good evidence, but let's be sure. Where did Gandalf cope with all 9 Nazgúl at the same time? The Witchking was killed by means of a word of prophecy as much as by a woman and a Hobbit by whom the prophecy was fulfilled. Do you really think you can place Merry and Eowyn above Maiar? I can't agree on Gollum being more powerful than a typical Orc. He was, after all, just a Hobbit addicted to the Ring. The Ring itself, being a part of Sauron's power, would have to go below Sauron, but above Saruman and Gandalf, who admitted that it was too much for him. And no, Tom Bombadil does not become more powerful than Sauron on that account, because the Ring was of a nature by which it wouldn't affect him. Boromir, even though the primary weapon is fear, it's not the only weapon. The Witch King and the other Nazgúl were negative spiritual forces. I think the Witch King left the Gate because of Rohan; he was ready to take on Gandalf right then and there, which suggests to me the WK at least thought he could win. Also, the power of the Nazgúl seems to have become greater later in the War. Which suggests to me that at one point Glorfindel is greater, but not later on. I'm not sure I can prove that. Any takers? Eonwe, I'm looking for both hard and fast, and reasonable interpretations of data; if we don't allow the latter, there's no hope for getting anywhere with this (as if there ever were ha ha!). Slaying a creature does not make someone more powerful than that creature. Fate can come into play, and so can luck and skill. It helps, but does not create a one to one correlation. Eru Morgoth Manwë Varda Yavanna Ulmo Aulë Mandos Tulkas Lorien Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Witch King of Angmar Gandalf the White Saruman Gandalf the Grey Balrogs Thorondor Eagles Fëanor Finrod Felagund Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Blue Istari Radagast Glorfindel Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Goldberry Elves Uruk hai Wargs Humans Dwarves Orcs Bullroarer Took Gollum Goblins Spiders Hobbits Thanks much, the response has been very helpful so far. There's a long way to go, too. |
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#5 |
Dead Serious
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Re: Smaug below Sauron
In Unfinished Tales, "The Quest for Erebor", Gandalf goes on for some time about what the effects on Middle-Earth would have been without the events of The Hobbit. Bearing particularly on this situation, he refers to the devastating effect on Rivendell had Smaug not been killed, and from the passage, one gains a direct feeling that although Sauron might not have had direct control over the dragon's actions, he would definitely have been able to use him, and would have been the senior partner in any partnership they might have formed.
So I agree with Thinlómien, Smaug ought to be placed below Sauron.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
Last edited by Formendacil; 03-15-2006 at 04:28 PM. Reason: "i"s and "b"s are non synonymous in tags... |
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#6 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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I can see the Smaug/Sauron pseudo-alliance working much like the Sauron/Shelob one. However, I am put in my (by way of example) of historic wars, during which one nation, quite powerful, does the work for another just as powerful country such that the third, attacked, nation, is attacked from both sides; this doesn't necessarily indicate that one power is greater or lesser than another, just useful to the initiator.
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In a world grown ever smaller.
Posts: 678
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I take it you have regected my analysis of data? Thou stick in the mud!
![]() ![]() LMP, are you dealing with these entities as people, or people groups? Are 'Ents', 'Goblins', 'Hobbits', and 'Elves', waiting to be fleshed out, or are you planing to keep them that way? Because I don't think you really can. Balrogs come in all different shapes and sizes. Same for pretty much ever other race. I realize that will make your job allot harder. Or are you shooting for a more general overview of a certain race?
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I've got bridge club on Wednesday,
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#8 | ||||||||||||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Now as to Finrod and Fëanor. So if it's true that Fëanor strove with a host of Balrogs and held his own, well, that's pretty incredible! That puts Fëanor above Gandalf the White but under the Ring, but that just doesn't seem right to me. At best Fëanor and Finrod go between Saruman and Gandalf the Grey. Quote:
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And your own point, Child, reinforces my efforts here: the tables can be turned because a certain Hobbit speaks a prayer to one of the highest ranking Valar in a time of need, while wielding and Elven sword and Phial of light. So in the Shelob instance alone, we have an evil spider spirit (who is clearly more than just a spider) facing a Hobbit fortified with the strength of Elves and a Vala. Saruman's case is quite interesting. As I have already distinguished between Gandalf the Grey and White, it would be well to distinguish between Saruman of Orthanc and Saruman divested, or whatever adjective you wish to apply. The point is, Wormtongue wouldn't have had a prayer against Saruman before Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff. Saruman divested was a crushed wizard, a broken but eloquent man. Quote:
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Eru Morgoth Manwë Varda Yavanna Ulmo Aulë Mandos Tulkas Lorien Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Gandalf the White Witch King of Angmar Saruman Fëanor Finrod Felagund Melian Galadriel Thingol Elrond Gandalf the Grey Glorfindel Balrogs Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Círdan Blue Istari Thorondor Eagles Huan Radagast Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Goldberry Elves Wargs Dwarves Humans Uruk hai Orcs Bullroarer Took Gollum Goblins Spiders Hobbits Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-16-2006 at 09:29 PM. |
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#9 |
Dead Serious
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You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.
![]() Don't get me wrong, it's a fun idea and certainly generates a lot of fun debate. I just wonder if you're not coming across as too serious about it! After all, Middle-Earth isn't Dungeons & Dragons!
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#10 | ||
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?
Also, you're being contradictionary: Quote:
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out. I recently have played Risk ME edition, which I def recommend
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#12 | |||||||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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And thanks for the solid research on Uruk-hai versus half-orcs. I just learned something new about LotR. Quote:
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I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up. But then why not above Goblins? Because Goblins are more ruthless, though probably more cowardly. Well. Cowardliness is a worse disease than ruthlessness overcomes, so I think I'll put Hobbits above Goblins too. Eru Morgoth Manwë Varda Yavanna Ulmo Aulë Mandos Tulkas Lorien Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Gandalf the White Witch King of Angmar Saruman Fëanor Finrod Felagund Melian Gandalf the Grey Galadriel Thingol Elrond Glorfindel Balrogs Nazgúl Arwen Undómiel Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Círdan Blue Istari Thorondor Eagles Huan Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Frodo Baggins Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Gimli the Dwarf Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Wargs Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Boromir Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Gollum Hobbits Goblins Spiders |
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#13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Let me know if this makes sense: Can we really count Tom Bombadill if we dont know who/what he is? Obviously, sine the whole [ring cant control him, but he cant control ring] thing adds some debate, and for all we know, (this is a reference to Battle for Middle-Earth 2) he could have a "Sonic Singing" power that would blow a humanoid Sauron away. Like RL, you cant really define a power of something unless you know enough about what it has done, and what it pre-hinted.
Also, about spiders-hobbits:Bilbo was as we know an excdptional hobbit. Think of what might have happened if you gave the Ring and Sting (dont forget an empty stomach!) to each hobbit and give them a spider of Mirkwood, a la gladiator style. Tooks might be able to beat some, but not all. ________ Toyota carina Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:30 PM. |
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#14 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I do appreciate your statement regarding Catholicism, spirituality, and hierarchies. "I too am a man under authority, and I say to this soldier...." etc. But that (then) brings it down to the hierarchy of individuals, does it not? Bilbo over spiders, Ted Sandyman under spiders. And what if some of the spiders are cowardly, and some are braver than others? Could even Bilbo have defeated Shelob-- with Sting but without the phial of Galadriel? How much of Hobbits-Defeating-Spiders depends on Elvish artistry and contributions? How well would Bilbo have done with a normal dagger instead of Sting? Does it matter? Personally, I'd get flummoxed (as you can see) just having to sort two or three characters. I'm rather impressed that you've gotten this far. Please continue having fun & sorting the list. I'm going to go compare your ranking for Shelob and Aragorn....
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#15 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Guiding Principle: Context is the determiner.
Eru Ilúvatar Melkor the Morgoth (primordial) Manwë Súlimo Ulmo Varda Elbereth Gilthoniel Yavanna Kementári Aulë Oromë Mandos Lorien Nienna Tulkas Astaldo Morgoth (earthbound) Estë Vairë Vana Nessa Arien Tilion Ancalagon Ungoliant Sauron Eonwë Uinen Ossë Glaurung Melian Olórin Curumo Aiwendil Pallando Alatar Salmar Eärendil amongst the stars Thorondor Gwaihir Landroval Eagles of Manwë Hawks of Manwë Smaug Gandalf the White Saruman the White Lúthien Tinúviel Fëanor Galadriel Fingolfin Fingon Finrod Felagund Gandalf the Grey Gothmog the Balrog Balrogs Elwë Thingol Finwë Olwë Finarfin Eärwen of Alqualondë Turgon Maedhros Idril Celebrindal Angrod Orodreth Finduilas Aegnor Glorfindel Celebrian Elrond Celeborn Huan Carcharoth Witch King of Angmar Khamul, 2nd Nazgúl Nazgúl Tuor Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Beren Eärendil in Middle Earth Elwing Gil-galad Círdan Elros Aredhel Maglor Amrod Amras Eöl Maeglin Celegorm Curufin Caranthir Elladan Elrohir Arwen Undómiel Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast the Brown Blue Istari Shelob Tom Bombadil Treebeard Ents Mearas Trolls Beleg Frodo Baggins (the nine fingered) Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Dúrin I Azaghàl Gimli the Dwarf Beorn Dain Ironfoot Balin lord of Moria Thorin Oakenshield Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Eärnur Boromir Bard Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Bilbo Baggins Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Hobbits Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgúl Mouth of Sauron Saruman divested Ravens Crows Wargs Ted Sandyman Gríma Wormtongue Sméagol Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Gollum Spiders Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-12-2006 at 07:48 PM. |
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#16 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Upon further reading in the Sil it becomes clear that Finarfin's heirs also fell under the curse.
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So all the Noldor were under Mandos' curse that was sanctioned by Manwë, as a result of the Slaying of Alqualondë. Only the sons of Fëanor were bound by the oath of the Silmarils. However, Fingolfin's house, by his oath to follow Fëanor wheresoever he leads, does play into this oath. Complicated. Now here's a question: How did the lies of Morgoth get spread, with him holed up in Thangorodrim during that centuries long siege? Updated List |
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#17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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Send re-enforcements were going to advance.................
Morgoth had many spies, and once the seeds were sown, it only took time for the half-truths and lies to grow, a bit like Chinese whispers. One of the reasons Hurin was shunned was because no-one trusted that Morgoth released him for any good reason than to do harm.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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#18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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Ilike the word like
To Littlemanpoet, you know the old chesnut about the Balrogs wings ie LIKE two vast wings, well in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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#19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
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you forgot Nazgul
![]() Actually i like the list but yes i agree sub categories should be in there and unless its in the tales of tom bombadil(that song or whatnot) i think goldberry should be a little lower and maybe hobbits above spiders(but thats almost too close to say)
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#20 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.
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#21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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The Half-orcs
Just to try and clear up a small point made by Littlemanpoet, that the half-orcs were Uruk-hai. In Robert Fosters Complete Guide to Middle-Earth he writes thus:
Half-orcs Servents of Saruman, used by him as spies and soldiers. They were seemingly the product of a cross between Men and Orcs. Although tall as Men, they were sallow-faced and squint-eyed. The Chief's Men were half-orcs. The half-orcs (the term is not used in The Lord of the Rings) were definitely not Uruk-hai. Fosters guide is considered one of the better ones, even by Christopher Tolkien. In Tylers The Tolkien Companion under the Uruk-hai section he states thus: Saruman himself attempted further genetic experiments with the race of 'Great Orcs'- with singularly unhappy results: creatures known as 'Half-orcs' which were said (by Sarumans enemies) to be the result of cross-breeding between Uruk-hai and certain degenerate Men in his service. It may well be that The Uruks were a cross between Men and Orcs, but they were created by Sauron, not Saruman as it appears in the films. The Uruks first appeared about TA 2475.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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#22 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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What we're dealing with is the question of the precise power of the Ring & how it works. It plays on the individual's desires, so a being without desire would be impervious to its allure. This also means that Tom could never use the Ring (Galadriel tells Frodo that he could only use the Ring if he trained his will to the domination of others. Tom has no desire to do that (from what we know of him)). Certainly he is not powerful enough to destroy it, & this being the case can we really say he is more powerful than it? It could not dominate him, he could not destroy it. Actually, he could well be less powerful than it in a real sense. After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people. |
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#23 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves????? where among the creations of Eru ( and of couse of Mathar) do we have our well deserved place in the list..... almost at the bottom¡?
![]() what about our greatest father Dúrin or the great deeds of Azaghàl fron Belelgost of whom even the great worm ran away from on the Nirnaeth. then there is of course the great battle of the five armies (in wich even tough slained, i died from many wounds from many foes and killed the orc leader) ![]() |
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#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King? He's way too high on your list. Being scary to Hobbits and average Men doesn't make someone powerful. He shouldn't be above any Eldar (seriously, are you joking or just trying to bait me?), nor should he be above Hurin or Turin or Huan or any of the Istari. Wait, you even gauged him above Balrogs? He was a MAN with delusions of invulnerability and a knack for freaking people out: Hurin would have laughed in his skinny face.
Last edited by obloquy; 03-27-2006 at 10:27 PM. |
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