Relative Powers

[drigel]

like the thread says - it's all relative. It depends on whose perspective you are taking.

Mabye LMP should construct a grid, instead of working in a linear fashion.

Personally, I would place Huan in between Sauron and G the White



edit:

and fear is a major weapon in achieving this end

well, then you would (by the end of the 3rd age at the least) have to put Galadriel on that list, because she was much feared by many non-elvish folk, right? She should at least be up there with the Feanor/Glorfindel group

or perhaps you would have to multiple lines - say for elves, the top would be:
Morgoth
Balrog
Sauron

for humans it would be:
Sauron
WK
Ancalagon

etc

[Boromir88]

But if we think about it, fear should actually place the Nazgul and the Ring and other such entities high on a list of 'power', instead of low. Power isn't just about the ability to wield a sword or cast a spell, it's also about the ability to control, and fear is a major weapon in achieving this end -

And of course I would agree, fear can be a powerful weapon. Saruman also uses it sometimes, his manipulating abilities help him out a bunch. But, I would put those who don't show fear, and are fearless (like Gandalf and Glorfindel seem to be) above the WK. That's what makes the WK so strong, and there are very few who don't show any fear for the WK, but for those few who would qualify in the "not fearing" category I would put above him.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by LMP

Eonwe, I appreciate your opinion, but I need some evidence before I'll make an alteration.

Will do, mi'lord!

Actually, are you looking for hard and fast evidences, or are you looking for interpretations of data?

An interpretation of data is as follows:

Finrod Felegund, as per your list already, is below both Feanor and Glorfindel. Finrod strove with Sauron on Tol-in-Gauthrol and matched him fairly well. Fairly well, though Sauron obviously had the mastery. We can assume, by common sense, that Sauron is quite a ways above the Witch King. And if Finrod is near Sauron, then he is above the Witch King. And so are Feanor and Glorfindel.

Also, Glorfindel was said to have slain a Balrog in the sack of Gondolin. Balrogs being what they are, corrupted Maia, no less, I would say that is a considerable feat. I would think Balrog would be above Witch King as well, considering they were the primary servents of Morgoth.

Not to mention Gandalf. I think he is a bit of an enigma, considering that he is expressly forbidden to match himself power-for-power against the enemy. I think he would end up quite a bit farther up then you would expect, in a duel. (Remember, Gandalf the Grey is matched against the Balrog after performing the shutting spell, which seems to have weakened him quite a bit.)

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks one and all for a very interesting and robust response to my humble thread. Now for answers to the replies (through Eonwe) so far:

Just a few points. Bullroarer Took was an exceptional Hobbit. So I can place him individually above Goblins, but not your typical Hobbit. Humans apparently have a greater potential than Elves, which is foreshadowed in Ilúvatar's words in the Ainúlindalë; however, the typical Human is far below the typical Elf in relative power. Therefore, Húrin and Túrin can conceivably considered to have attained a higher degree of power than Fëanor. Sorry, Ang. We are factoring in all the primary modes of power, not merely swordsmanship or magic, but will, word of power (closely related to magic, I suppose), and all other such that have an effect upon reality within the confines of Arda.

Ang, I need a reason to put Maedhros and Fingolfin above Fëanor.

Lalwendë, there is enough in the quoted text to include Ungoliant in the list. The "it is said" bit is a classic Tolkienism that is used to suggest legend and folklore rather than feigned history. Therefore, I'm going to go with the feigned history. One of the presuppositions for this thread is that there is no being that is independent of the creation of Eru.

I'm all for worms, fisticuffs, well made points, and corrections backed by evidence to this list. But it being my list, I will make decisions now and then to end certain points of debate, as I did above regarding Ungoliant. It was a very good effort, Lal, but doomed, as it butted its head up against an immutabilty.

Earendilyon: WiKi?

Thinlomien: Why put Smaug below Sauron? Does it say that Fëanor was the most powerful? If so, that is good evidence, but let's be sure. Where did Gandalf cope with all 9 Nazgúl at the same time? The Witchking was killed by means of a word of prophecy as much as by a woman and a Hobbit by whom the prophecy was fulfilled. Do you really think you can place Merry and Eowyn above Maiar? I can't agree on Gollum being more powerful than a typical Orc. He was, after all, just a Hobbit addicted to the Ring. The Ring itself, being a part of Sauron's power, would have to go below Sauron, but above Saruman and Gandalf, who admitted that it was too much for him. And no, Tom Bombadil does not become more powerful than Sauron on that account, because the Ring was of a nature by which it wouldn't affect him.

Boromir, even though the primary weapon is fear, it's not the only weapon. The Witch King and the other Nazgúl were negative spiritual forces. I think the Witch King left the Gate because of Rohan; he was ready to take on Gandalf right then and there, which suggests to me the WK at least thought he could win. Also, the power of the Nazgúl seems to have become greater later in the War. Which suggests to me that at one point Glorfindel is greater, but not later on. I'm not sure I can prove that. Any takers?

Eonwe, I'm looking for both hard and fast, and reasonable interpretations of data; if we don't allow the latter, there's no hope for getting anywhere with this (as if there ever were ha ha!). Slaying a creature does not make someone more powerful than that creature. Fate can come into play, and so can luck and skill. It helps, but does not create a one to one correlation.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Witch King of Angmar
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrogs
Thorondor
Eagles
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Blue Istari
Radagast
Glorfindel
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Uruk hai
Wargs
Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits

Thanks much, the response has been very helpful so far. There's a long way to go, too.

[Formendacil]

In Unfinished Tales, "The Quest for Erebor", Gandalf goes on for some time about what the effects on Middle-Earth would have been without the events of The Hobbit. Bearing particularly on this situation, he refers to the devastating effect on Rivendell had Smaug not been killed, and from the passage, one gains a direct feeling that although Sauron might not have had direct control over the dragon's actions, he would definitely have been able to use him, and would have been the senior partner in any partnership they might have formed.

So I agree with Thinlómien, Smaug ought to be placed below Sauron.

[littlemanpoet]

I can see the Smaug/Sauron pseudo-alliance working much like the Sauron/Shelob one. However, I am put in my (by way of example) of historic wars, during which one nation, quite powerful, does the work for another just as powerful country such that the third, attacked, nation, is attacked from both sides; this doesn't necessarily indicate that one power is greater or lesser than another, just useful to the initiator.

[Eonwe]

I take it you have regected my analysis of data? Thou stick in the mud!

LMP, are you dealing with these entities as people, or people groups? Are 'Ents', 'Goblins', 'Hobbits', and 'Elves', waiting to be fleshed out, or are you planing to keep them that way?

Because I don't think you really can. Balrogs come in all different shapes and sizes. Same for pretty much ever other race. I realize that will make your job allot harder. Or are you shooting for a more general overview of a certain race?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Finrod Felegund, as per your list already, is below both Feanor and Glorfindel. Finrod strove with Sauron on Tol-in-Gauthrol and matched him fairly well. Fairly well, though Sauron obviously had the mastery. We can assume, by common sense, that Sauron is quite a ways above the Witch King. And if Finrod is near Sauron, then he is above the Witch King. And so are Feanor and Glorfindel.

The Witch King's power comes from the ring he wears, the power of which is derived from the One Ring. Otherwise, he is a Black Numenorean Man; as such, he is less than many Elves. But the 'otherwise' is not the case we are dealing with. The nub of the issue is that Gandalf the White and the Witch King seem to be more or less evenly matched (Jackson was stupid for having WK break Gandalf's staff), but the WK the more dire of the two. If so, then the WK is greater than Balrogs. Which I find troublesome, because I'm not sure he is. So let's say that the Witch King actually is lesser than Gandalf the White. I think it's still safe to say that WK is greater than Saruman.

Now as to Finrod and Fëanor. So if it's true that Fëanor strove with a host of Balrogs and held his own, well, that's pretty incredible! That puts Fëanor above Gandalf the White but under the Ring, but that just doesn't seem right to me. At best Fëanor and Finrod go between Saruman and Gandalf the Grey.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Also, Glorfindel was said to have slain a Balrog in the sack of Gondolin. Balrogs being what they are, corrupted Maia, no less, I would say that is a considerable feat. I would think Balrog would be above Witch King as well, considering they were the primary servents of Morgoth.

Although a considerable feat, to slay a creature in pitched battle is a different thing than to slay a creature in one to one combat. All kinds of extraneous factors come into pitched battles. Still, it is an incredible feat.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Not to mention Gandalf. I think he is a bit of an enigma, considering that he is expressly forbidden to match himself power-for-power against the enemy. I think he would end up quite a bit farther up then you would expect, in a duel. (Remember, Gandalf the Grey is matched against the Balrog after performing the shutting spell, which seems to have weakened him quite a bit.)

I still see the Maiar of Valinor as above Gandalf the White, until someone can show me otherwise.

Originally Posted by Mr. U.

I've always thought this sort of "power" hierarchy is a red herring. Put rock, scissors, and paper in a hierarchy... see what I mean? Sauron's will beats Orcs, Orcish muscle beats hobbits, hobbit fortitude beats Sauron.

Originally Posted by Child

I mean the whole idea of making such a list runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. Everything in LotR makes me realize that, at any given instant in time, the tables can be turned and someone from the bottom of the list can defeat someone higher up. What that means is that the list has no real meaning.

For example...

Originally Posted by Sauce

Saruman had great powers of persuasion and could corrupt nations and control vast armies, yet he was felled by the lowly Wormtongue.

Hobbit fortitude was not enough to defeat Sauron. Galadriel's Phial played an important role when they faced Shelob. Sting held Sam in good stead in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. My point is that we have here the power of Elves combined with the power of Hobbits, strength married to strength. I strongly disagree that this runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. I would guess that among his notes such lists may very well be found. I have created such comparative lists in my own writing (not to say mine is on a par with Tolkien, far from it); such questions naturally arise from the writing process, and for me, in the appreciation process as well.

And your own point, Child, reinforces my efforts here: the tables can be turned because a certain Hobbit speaks a prayer to one of the highest ranking Valar in a time of need, while wielding and Elven sword and Phial of light. So in the Shelob instance alone, we have an evil spider spirit (who is clearly more than just a spider) facing a Hobbit fortified with the strength of Elves and a Vala.

Saruman's case is quite interesting. As I have already distinguished between Gandalf the Grey and White, it would be well to distinguish between Saruman of Orthanc and Saruman divested, or whatever adjective you wish to apply. The point is, Wormtongue wouldn't have had a prayer against Saruman before Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff. Saruman divested was a crushed wizard, a broken but eloquent man.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hey, is this a democracy or a dictatorship?

This thread is a democracy and my list is a dictatorship. If you wish to be a dictator too, start a rival list. My list will continue to be Eru-centric, even to the extent of Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, and Goldberry. I acknowledge the layering of which you speak; still, I believe there to be principles of spirit written into the texts that adhere to a hierarchical approach to "powers".

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I do agree the list is a bit weird thing to do. But I thnk the power should be measured in how much did/could the individual affect the world.

Precisely. I could not have said it better. I would include groups as well. I bolded 'weird' because the word also has connotations of power of spirit; so I agree too.

Originally Posted by Earendilyon

the Wiki is the WitchKing.

Okay. Thanks.

IIRC, The Hobbit tells us, that Gollum once and a while ate some stray Orcs.

But Gollum is wearing the Ring when he kills these orcs (or Goblins, I like to differentiate between the two); he could never have done so without the Ring.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Dwarves should be above humans for this simple reason they have about equal strength but dwarves are smaller sooo proportionally they have greater strength.

You make a good case. Yet there is the potential in Humanity that goes far beyond Dwarvish potential. On the other hand, that potential is found in individuals, not groups; so as groups, I think that I am persuaded to put Dwarves above Humans .... in general.

Originally Posted by A narfforc

Where on the list would The Half-orcs come, lower or higher than the orcs, and what about Troll-men?

Uruk Hai are half-orcs. Hmm... maybe the belong between Humans and Orcs? Troll-men? Where are they found in Tolkien?

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Gandalf the Grey
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Wargs
Dwarves
Humans
Uruk hai
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits

[Formendacil]

You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fun idea and certainly generates a lot of fun debate. I just wonder if you're not coming across as too serious about it! After all, Middle-Earth isn't Dungeons & Dragons!

[Thinlómien]

Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?

Also, you're being contradictionary:

The Witch King's power comes from the ring he wears, the power of which is derived from the One Ring. Otherwise, he is a Black Numenorean Man; as such, he is less than many Elves. But the 'otherwise' is not the case we are dealing with. The nub of the issue is that Gandalf the White and the Witch King seem to be more or less evenly matched (Jackson was stupid for having WK break Gandalf's staff), but the WK the more dire of the two. If so, then the WK is greater than Balrogs. Which I find troublesome, because I'm not sure he is. So let's say that the Witch King actually is lesser than Gandalf the White. I think it's still safe to say that WK is greater than Saruman.

and

But Gollum is wearing the Ring when he kills these orcs (or Goblins, I like to differentiate between the two); he could never have done so without the Ring.

. So the Ring affects Witch King's position on the list, but not Gollum's? Care to explain yourself?

[drigel]

Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out. I recently have played Risk ME edition, which I def recommend

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.

I have a great respect for the entire Church, into the current century; that includes the Catholic, of course. The nature of spiritual reality is hierarchy. That's one of my primary reasons for starting this thread. And I don't mind having a little fun with it.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?

Mostly to distinguish between him as Grey and White. But your points are well taken. I'll place him above his two fellow Elven Ring-bearers.

Originally Posted by drigel

Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out.

The Yule Log, in the Rohan forum, set in the beginning of the Third Age; I have posited an evil Maia (one of Melkor's original followers) who was Morgoth's "cook"; that is, chief torturer of fëar. This Maia was trapped for the entirety of the Second Age in the deeps of Thangorodrim, but the cataclysm that sank Numenor at the end of the Second Age, caused this Maia's release. Just my little bit of story making, no canonicity to it at all; but I'm trying to be faithful to Tolkien all the same.

Originally Posted by narfforc

... in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.

I shall add half-trolls, but in italics. Now I just need to figure out an appropriate place for them... I agree with sub-categories. Care to suggest placements?

And thanks for the solid research on Uruk-hai versus half-orcs. I just learned something new about LotR.

Originally Posted by Morsul

you forgot Nazgul.

Oops!

Originally Posted by Morsul

...i think goldberry should be a little lower

How low?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all.

Well, that's a very interesting point, which I wrestled with when I first included him in my list. My rationale for his placement below Radagast was that he is no Maiar, but a nature spirit (which may be another kind of incarnated Maiar); and that he is not superior to the Ring but not at all in the same context. This is because the Ring is all about power and the acquisition of more while Tom Bombadil is, by nature, about remaining precisely within his limited sphere of power and authority. I'm not sure my rationale is sound, but I'd like to see it exploded before I change his placement, if you please. Ah, I see that davem has answered you with pretty much the same reasoning I've tried to use.

I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up. But then why not above Goblins? Because Goblins are more ruthless, though probably more cowardly. Well. Cowardliness is a worse disease than ruthlessness overcomes, so I think I'll put Hobbits above Goblins too.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Gandalf the Grey
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Nazgúl
Arwen Undómiel
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Frodo Baggins
Eldar: Vanyar
Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir
Humans: line of Elros
Gimli the Dwarf
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi
Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Wargs
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor
Boromir
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians
Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Half-orcs
Uruk hai
Orcs
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Hobbits
Goblins
Spiders

[Elu Ancalime]

Let me know if this makes sense: Can we really count Tom Bombadill if we dont know who/what he is? Obviously, sine the whole [ring cant control him, but he cant control ring] thing adds some debate, and for all we know, (this is a reference to Battle for Middle-Earth 2) he could have a "Sonic Singing" power that would blow a humanoid Sauron away. Like RL, you cant really define a power of something unless you know enough about what it has done, and what it pre-hinted.


Also, about spiders-hobbits:Bilbo was as we know an excdptional hobbit. Think of what might have happened if you gave the Ring and Sting (dont forget an empty stomach!) to each hobbit and give them a spider of Mirkwood, a la gladiator style. Tooks might be able to beat some, but not all.
________
Toyota carina

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up.

This exemplifies what Underhill and C7A were referring to. Bilbo defeated the spiders; but would Ted Sandyman have half a chance?

I do appreciate your statement regarding Catholicism, spirituality, and hierarchies. "I too am a man under authority, and I say to this soldier...." etc. But that (then) brings it down to the hierarchy of individuals, does it not? Bilbo over spiders, Ted Sandyman under spiders.

And what if some of the spiders are cowardly, and some are braver than others?

Could even Bilbo have defeated Shelob-- with Sting but without the phial of Galadriel? How much of Hobbits-Defeating-Spiders depends on Elvish artistry and contributions? How well would Bilbo have done with a normal dagger instead of Sting? Does it matter?

Personally, I'd get flummoxed (as you can see) just having to sort two or three characters. I'm rather impressed that you've gotten this far. Please continue having fun & sorting the list. I'm going to go compare your ranking for Shelob and Aragorn....

[littlemanpoet]

Guiding Principle: Context is the determiner.

Eru Ilúvatar
Melkor the Morgoth (primordial)
Manwë Súlimo
Ulmo
Varda Elbereth Gilthoniel

Yavanna Kementári
Aulë
Oromë
Mandos
Lorien

Nienna
Tulkas Astaldo
Morgoth (earthbound)
Estë
Vairë

Vana
Nessa
Arien
Tilion
Ancalagon

Ungoliant
Sauron
Eonwë
Uinen
Ossë

Glaurung
Melian
Olórin
Curumo
Aiwendil

Pallando
Alatar
Salmar
Eärendil amongst the stars
Thorondor

Gwaihir
Landroval
Eagles of Manwë
Hawks of Manwë
Smaug

Gandalf the White
Saruman the White
Lúthien Tinúviel
Fëanor
Galadriel

Fingolfin
Fingon
Finrod Felagund
Gandalf the Grey
Gothmog the Balrog

Balrogs
Elwë Thingol
Finwë
Olwë
Finarfin

Eärwen of Alqualondë
Turgon
Maedhros
Idril Celebrindal
Angrod

Orodreth
Finduilas
Aegnor
Glorfindel
Celebrian

Elrond
Celeborn
Huan
Carcharoth
Witch King of Angmar

Khamul, 2nd Nazgúl
Nazgúl
Tuor
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)

Beren
Eärendil in Middle Earth
Elwing
Gil-galad
Círdan

Elros
Aredhel
Maglor
Amrod
Amras

Eöl
Maeglin
Celegorm
Curufin
Caranthir

Elladan
Elrohir
Arwen Undómiel
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast the Brown

Blue Istari
Shelob
Tom Bombadil
Treebeard
Ents

Mearas
Trolls
Beleg
Frodo Baggins (the nine fingered)
Eldar: Vanyar

Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir

Humans: line of Elros
Dúrin I
Azaghàl
Gimli the Dwarf
Beorn

Dain Ironfoot
Balin lord of Moria
Thorin Oakenshield
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi

Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor

Eärnur
Boromir
Bard
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians

Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Bilbo Baggins
Meriadoc Brandybuck

Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Hobbits
Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgúl

Mouth of Sauron
Saruman divested
Ravens
Crows
Wargs

Ted Sandyman
Gríma Wormtongue
Sméagol
Half-orcs
Uruk hai

Orcs
Gollum
Spiders

[littlemanpoet]

Upon further reading in the Sil it becomes clear that Finarfin's heirs also fell under the curse.

(129)Then the sons of Finarfin departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the words of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Fëanor could escape the shadow that lay upon his house.

Grim words.

So all the Noldor were under Mandos' curse that was sanctioned by Manwë, as a result of the Slaying of Alqualondë.

Only the sons of Fëanor were bound by the oath of the Silmarils. However, Fingolfin's house, by his oath to follow Fëanor wheresoever he leads, does play into this oath. Complicated.

Now here's a question: How did the lies of Morgoth get spread, with him holed up in Thangorodrim during that centuries long siege?

Updated List

[narfforc]

Morgoth had many spies, and once the seeds were sown, it only took time for the half-truths and lies to grow, a bit like Chinese whispers. One of the reasons Hurin was shunned was because no-one trusted that Morgoth released him for any good reason than to do harm.

[narfforc]

To Littlemanpoet, you know the old chesnut about the Balrogs wings ie LIKE two vast wings, well in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.

[Morsul the Dark]

you forgot Nazgul

Actually i like the list but yes i agree sub categories should be in there


and unless its in the tales of tom bombadil(that song or whatnot) i think goldberry should be a little lower

and maybe hobbits above spiders(but thats almost too close to say)

[Lalwendë]

Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.

[narfforc]

Just to try and clear up a small point made by Littlemanpoet, that the half-orcs were Uruk-hai. In Robert Fosters Complete Guide to Middle-Earth he writes thus:

Half-orcs Servents of Saruman, used by him as spies and soldiers. They were seemingly the product of a cross between Men and Orcs. Although tall as Men, they were sallow-faced and squint-eyed. The Chief's Men were half-orcs.
The half-orcs (the term is not used in The Lord of the Rings) were definitely not Uruk-hai.

Fosters guide is considered one of the better ones, even by Christopher Tolkien.

In Tylers The Tolkien Companion under the Uruk-hai section he states thus: Saruman himself attempted further genetic experiments with the race of 'Great Orcs'- with singularly unhappy results: creatures known as 'Half-orcs' which were said (by Sarumans enemies) to be the result of cross-breeding between Uruk-hai and certain degenerate Men in his service.

It may well be that The Uruks were a cross between Men and Orcs, but they were created by Sauron, not Saruman as it appears in the films. The Uruks first appeared about TA 2475.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.

Well, Tom is unaffected by the Ring, but I'm nit sure this is the same thing as being more powerful than it. Quite simply, the ring has nothing to take hold of Tom by - he has no desire to be anything other than he is, or possess anything he doesn't already have ('He is' as Goldberry says of him). Certainly the Ring can do things Tom cannot. And Gandalf states at the Council that Tom could not stand against Sauron himself.

What we're dealing with is the question of the precise power of the Ring & how it works. It plays on the individual's desires, so a being without desire would be impervious to its allure. This also means that Tom could never use the Ring (Galadriel tells Frodo that he could only use the Ring if he trained his will to the domination of others. Tom has no desire to do that (from what we know of him)). Certainly he is not powerful enough to destroy it, & this being the case can we really say he is more powerful than it? It could not dominate him, he could not destroy it.

Actually, he could well be less powerful than it in a real sense. After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people.

Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves????? where among the creations of Eru ( and of couse of Mathar) do we have our well deserved place in the list..... almost at the bottom¡? humans and even hobbits have their own "individual" champions, so
what about our greatest father Dúrin or the great deeds of Azaghàl fron Belelgost of whom even the great worm ran away from on the Nirnaeth. then there is of course the great battle of the five armies (in wich even tough slained, i died from many wounds from many foes and killed the orc leader) ,Dain ironfoot or even more recently Balin lord of moria... i think that at least one of them should rank above Gimli (with all due respect to thy son of Glóin) even tough it has been telled that only him among the creations of mathar-eru ever saw the blessed kingdom in life....

[obloquy]

Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King? He's way too high on your list. Being scary to Hobbits and average Men doesn't make someone powerful. He shouldn't be above any Eldar (seriously, are you joking or just trying to bait me?), nor should he be above Hurin or Turin or Huan or any of the Istari. Wait, you even gauged him above Balrogs? He was a MAN with delusions of invulnerability and a knack for freaking people out: Hurin would have laughed in his skinny face.