Survivor: The Second Age

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrian.

Not because I want her gone*, but because she needs it.

Don't you see? Being on this island and roughing it with so many different people has scared and confused poor Celebrian. With people being sent off in small boats and poofing into thin air she doesn't even know if the world is real. Sauron spreading rumors that she was fat and that Elrond re-married has really hurt her. She's been spending the last five days on this island depressed and lying on the beach, staring at the ocean, wanting to go back to Valinor. Staying on the island by a lame voting plot rigged by Mirel and Galadriel against someone else has made her believe that everyone is against her. She thinks that the men will take advantage of her and the woman will make her a slave. She doesn't think she can make it. Anarion thinks she might kill herself soon.

So please, send Celebrian off the island so that she can return to Valinor and heal from this experience.

(*Okay, so maybe a tiny bit.)

Also,

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Celebrian didn't even see the war front; she just walked on the wrong side of the tracks on purpose and got hurt. The Queen of Rivendell should know where the enemy roams. She didn't have to endure horrorific armies and whatnot. Furthermore, she sailed into the west becuase of her injury. When that happened to Frodo, it was his "death" so to speak. The same applies for Celebrian.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

Okay, okay, she's a wonderful Elf...but she doesn't deserve to be here. Please don't make me give any further explanation other than what I've already said previously because, really, what else is there to say?

[JennyHallu]

++Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor's gullibility was the root of most of the problems faced during the Second Age. If a man is granted real skill and wisdom, he should use them, not allow himself to be duped by a known enemy.

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

+ + CELEBRIMBOR

His greed for knowledge of ring lore led him to be taken in by Sauron and thus significantly contributed towards the downfall of Kings of Men, the corruption of Dwarven Lords, the waning of Elven power in Middle-earth, the creation of the One Ring and, therefore, the near total victory of Sauron.

He was humiliatingly used as a flag by the armies of Mordor.

Basically, he was a complete embarrassment to the line of Feanor.

And, on the Island, he occupies himself weaving plants into rings and calling them Rings of Flower, rather than contributing usefully towards the tasks or camp duties.

Besides, if he goes, it will annoy Ang and TP.

[Celuien]

++ELROS

Same reasoning as before. Minus the part about boycotting the anti-Celebornists.

[Lalaith]

++ELROS

same reasons as before. And I'm fond of Celebrimbor. He's clever, he makes pretty things and he likes Galadriel. What's not to like?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You'd think the fate of eight previous elves (daddy + 7)
significantly caused by pride in their powers would
have had some influence on him.

[Lalaith]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

It's the survival of the fittest, and she isn't fit.

[Firefoot]

++Elros

To recap my reasons (it was a couple days ago, now): as king, he basically did nothing except live for a really long time. The only things Elros is noted for are being related to Earendil, Elrond, etc., choosing mortality, being the first king of Numenor, and living a long time. At least Celebrimbor actually did something, however misguided he may have been in it. I'm not sure I want him to win, but I'd rather see Elros go first.

[JennyHallu]

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

Yeah, this is SA survivor, and, as mentioned, we can use any event from any age to decide the outcome.

You also overlook the fact that Glorfindel actually died. He was sent to the Halls of Mandos and was then sent back to Middle-Earth. The Halls of Mandos really doesn't sound too pleasant. No elf has ever sailed to Valinor and come back.