Relative Powers

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Thalion

what I think everyone missed in that thread is what does the word "greatest" mean..

Excellent point. Quotes pointing out levels of "greatness" cannot be used directly to determine levels of "power". They are two different words. As The Barrow-Wight said on another thread, according to his dictionary Luthien being the "greatest" means that she was the "largest" of the elves.

[the phantom]

I skimmed the thread as best I could, and I didn't happen to spot one of my favorite quotes from the Silmarillion. So, here it is. And if it's already there and I just missed it, it can't hurt to read it again.

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

In other words, Feanor should remain very very high on the list, no matter what arguments others come up with.

[Thalion]

Well this will be the second time I attempt to post this as the first one timed out on me...grrr...

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

This passage, finally supplied by the phantom, speaks to the "greatness" of Feanor...when so many often say that Feanor is the greatest in a particular character aspect such as metalurgy or works of hand this passage lends them credibilty...not only that but it even characterizes Feanor as "mightiest...in beauty" a character trait often described of Galadriel or Luthien...

...this is not the importance of this passage, per say...its importance is to lend crediblity that Feanor is the "mightiest" or "greatest" in certain catagories...this question is often posited in response to the passage concerning Luthien being the "greatest of the Eldar"...people ask "greatest in what"...and the correct answer is essentially..."not in anything in particular, just the greatest" since Tolkien doesn't qualify this statement...but he does quality the statements about Feanor...which lead us to believe possibly that Luthien is the greatest elf of all...

...but to do so would not necessarily be to take the entire quotion in the correct context...I repeat it here one more time for argument:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

The crux of this statement is "WHAT DOES GREATEST MEAN?!"...this question defines the statement...how you answer it will alter your beliefs as to what placement Luthien deserves amongst the elves.......as I've said multiple times before, defining "greatness" can be to say "of most renown" or "most famous"...to define "greatness" in this way would no way place Luthien atop a list of the highest in relative powers, but yet it would be an accurate description of the passage presented above...I say this because the alternate definitions of "greatness" that I provided can be gathered from the Oxford English Dictionary, which gives not concrete definitions of things, but rather contextual definitions to provide readers with alternative uses of a word as authors have used it over time...while this may not be greatly important, what is important is that Tolkien was a writer to this dictionary at one point in his life...this means he was chiefy aware of alternative definitions to words...including such words as "greatest"...

...additionally, a definition of "greatest" as "of most renown" or "most famous" is outside a proper reading of the passage above...the passage speaks of the history of elves and which elves concern their history most chiefly...this means that to call Luthien the "greatest" in this context could very well mean that she is in fact the elf to which tales telll the most about or to which legends most often speak about...legends may speak about Luthein more often than others for various reasons including that her tale with Beren is a bittersweet tale with a somewhat happy ending(?), that it is important for understading the history of the Elves (and later Numenoreans) or that is the most beautiful tale when sung in Quena or Sindarian and that they enjoy hearing it most just as some of us prefer to watch certain movies over and over (or read certain books...cough cough....Tolkien works....cough cough) because they are most entertaining...this doesn't mean that she had more power than other elves simply that the Lay of Luthien would be the "greatest tale" of the elves because it speaks of lmany emotions including love, despair, hope, ect...

...lastly, and least we not forget...Luthien is most chiefly written to be Tolkien's wife...so there is obviously some author's prejudice here...although I do not argue with what Tolkien wrote, I simply mean to say that understanding this may create a greater understanding why she may be accounted amongst the very highest echelon of elves...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thalion

The crux of this statement is "WHAT DOES GREATEST MEAN?!"...this question defines the statement...how you answer it will alter your beliefs as to what placement Luthien deserves amongst the elves.......as I've said multiple times before, defining "greatness" can be to say "of most renown" or "most famous"...to define "greatness" in this way would no way place Luthien atop a list of the highest in relative powers,

I think the issue is one of context. What did Tolkien mean by saying both Feanor & Luthien were 'greatest'?

Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated

In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves:

They were tall, fair of skin & grey-eyed, though their locks were dark save in the golden house of Finarfin.

Now, CT has stated in BoLT1:

Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin's Vanyarin mother lndis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose.

Because of this, in the revised 50th anniversary text the editors (Hammond & Scull) add the following note to LotR:

These words describing characters of face & hair in fact applied only to the Noldor.

So, what we have is an apparently clear statement about the physical attributes of the 'Eldar' as a whole, but which in fact only applies to the Noldor. Whether this failure to distinguish between the Noldor & the Eldar as a whole applies in the case of Luthien vs Feanor is probably impossible to answer, but certainly it might be true to say that while Luthien was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Noldor (unless we give that crown to Galadriel). Yet, Luthien was not strictly 'Eldar, but half-Eldar-half Ainur.

Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases.

I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....

[narfforc]

Davem makes a good point concerning the translator. At one point Feanor is 'Mightiest in beauty', then Luthien is considered the most beautiful of all the Children of Iluvatar. Feanor is 'Mightiest in valour, then Fingolfin is the most valiant. My problem is that Fingolfin was valiant in facing Morgoth in battle, how valiant was Luthien then?

[Formendacil]

To go back to Tolkien's Fëanor statement, which the Phantom so eagerly supplies, one can see that Tolkien is NOT saying that Fëanor was the greatest craftsman (and so greater than Lúthien) but that he was the greatest all around- and then lists several fields as examples.

Since Tolkien elsewhere makes a similar (although without examples) statement about Lúthien being the greatest- and since he also makes a statment lumping the two of them together with Galadriel as the greatest, it is clear that they are both great, that one of them is the greatest- and that Tolkien's word, alone and by itself, cannot be taken as the final authority.

One must therefore, to determine which is the greater, take a look at the achievements and accomplishments- and failures- of the respective Elves to decide who is the greater.

[davem]

To argue against myself (which I have the greatest joy in doing) the statement re Feanor says he was made the greatest of the Eldar, not that he was, at least in the end, actually the greatest. Melkor was originally made the greatest of the Valar, but he subsequently fell from that position through his own actions. The same could be said of Feanor.

Of course, that doesn't clear things up, as Luthien (as I stated earlier) is not technically one of the Eldar (though the Eldar claim her as one of their own). She was half Eldar - half Ainur. Of course she would be 'greater' in terms of sheer power than Feanor, simply due to being half divine. Hence, Tolkien is technically wrong to class her as greatest among the Eldar.

Its equally true to say that Shadowfax is greater among equines than Bill, but we're not comparing like with like, so the comparison is ultimately false. Remove Luthien's divine aspect, (ie put aside those things she could only do due to that divinity) inherited from Melian, compare her to the 'unfallen' Feanor, at the height of his power & who is superior then?

This is my point about taking into account what isn't said as well as what is said & not taking statements (even ones by Tolkien) at face value.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Where are you getting this that Feanor is mentally weak, Sauce?

I never said that Feanor was mentally weak. I said that he had a mental weakness which should be taken into account when assessing his relative power.

But you concerted defence of him does illustrate another problem inherent in trying to come up with this kind of a list. It will always, as far as certain characters are concerned, be highly objective. Lmp recognises this and so retains for himself the final word. But there will always be disagreement over the placing of favourite characters.

One further point that has been bothering me. Why are Radagast and the Blue Wizards so low? They were Maiar, albeit subject to the restrictions imposed upon the Istari. As such, they should be an a par (if slightly lower, perhaps) than Saruman the White and Gandalf the Grey. They may not have used their power to great effect in the overall scheme of things, but they would undoubtedly have had a similar "level" of power.

And are Aiwendil, Alatar and Pallando on the list? I don't recall them being there. If they are not, they should be placed similarly, relative to Olorin and Curumo.

[the phantom]

I never said that Feanor was mentally weak. I said that he had a mental weakness which should be taken into account when assessing his relative power.

Ah, I understand what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. But my response to that would be that every single being besides Eru had some sort of mental weakness from Manwe down to the common orc. Feanor's only showed through the way it did because he was specifically marked and attacked by the most powerful being in all of Arda (and a couple of unfortunate events and a blunder or two by the Valar didn't help).

But you concerted defence of him does illustrate another problem inherent in trying to come up with this kind of a list. It will always, as far as certain characters are concerned, be highly objective. Lmp recognises this and so retains for himself the final word. But there will always be disagreement over the placing of favourite characters.

Quite right.

On the subject of "favourite characters", I readily admit that I absolutely love Feanor, but at the same time I think my approach to him is far more factual than emotional. Indeed, it was ignoring emotion and taking into account facts that made me a huge fan of Feanor in the first place.

When one reads the Silmarillion, it is natural to come away from it not liking Feanor. He is not treated with as much sympathy as he could've been- he is not treated like a hero. Feanor's actions are never remotely excused, and the Valar are never said to have made a mistake in their dealings with him. If I had just read the book, I probably would think Feanor was an out of control, egotistical, evil jerk, and that the Valar were practically perfect.

But I didn't just read. I considered the facts apart from the way in which they were presented. I thought, "Hmm, Feanor couldn't possibly hope to remain unaffected by Melkor if Melkor was trying to influence him. After all, Melkor obviously was capable of fooling Manwe. Given that, it appears Feanor is being banished from his home for not doing the impossible. The primary objectives after discovering Melkor's evil should have been to catch Melkor and to undo his evil words. But instead, the first thing the Valar do is give Feanor a punishment that reinforces Melkor's lies. Wow. That is, without a doubt, the worst possible decision they could've made."

So, as I hope you can see, my pro-Feanor stance grew from my examination of events, not from the way the events were presented. Surely that counts for something, and puts my opinions in a better light than some others who fanatically support one character or another.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

I think the issue is one of context. What did Tolkien mean by saying both Feanor & Luthien were 'greatest'?

Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated

In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves:



Now, CT has stated in BoLT1:



Because of this, in the revised 50th anniversary text the editors (Hammond & Scull) add the following note to LotR:



So, what we have is an apparently clear statement about the physical attributes of the 'Eldar' as a whole, but which in fact only applies to the Noldor. Whether this failure to distinguish between the Noldor & the Eldar as a whole applies in the case of Luthien vs Feanor is probably impossible to answer, but certainly it might be true to say that while Luthien was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Noldor (unless we give that crown to Galadriel). Yet, Luthien was not strictly 'Eldar, but half-Eldar-half Ainur.

Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases.

I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....

I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.

Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.

Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references.