WWJ VIII ~ Things That Go "Quack" In The Night

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! The nasty Wereducks killed the nice Halfling poet. I don’t hold much with poetry and the like. It makes my head hurt. But Miss Took was kind to me and did not treat me as an outcast just ‘cos I’m an Orc, unlike some I could mention.

*Glares at Glirdan*

But Halflings are weak and easy prey for these evil Ducks. Not like us Orcs. We are strong. We command! I have no fear of Ducks. They should fear me, ‘cos it’s my job to scare birds and I’m good at it. I will laugh in the face of their misshapen bills! I will roar to drown out their ridiculous quacks! I will spit on their downy backs! No, they hold no fear for me. So let’s hunt them down like the overgrown game-birds that they are!

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I suggest watching those two evil folk as you Men, Dwarves and Elves would call them.

How hasty you are in trying to stoke up the village’s prejudices against us Orckind, Glirdan. As the enlightened bird-catcher has pointed out, we make easy targets. But we are reformed Orcs, not the evil creatures of the olden tales. Many amongst you will know how useful I have proved myself in scaring the crows away from your crops. And so I hope to prove myself equally useful to the village in seeking out and destroying these Ducks of Udún.

I suppose it should not surprise me, coming from an overgrown twig such as yourself. But I wonder if there is some scheming behind your attempt to pick on the more vulnerable members of this village. I will be keeping an Orcish eye on you, Ent. ‘Tis oftentimes the case that those who arrive first at the scene turn out to be those who committed the grisly act.

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out. Perhaps he would rather help the Duckish cause, either because he is one of them himself or because, being but a Goose, wants them to suck seed – er - succeed.

There is little point now in dwelling at length on the consequences of our inability to recognise the Gifteds (except, of course, the Hawk) following their deaths. Not until the Ducks kill again, at least. So, they (and especially the Owl) should act as they see fit with that knowledge in mind.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What worries me in this situation, is that we stand a very high risk of losing all the dreams, with no way to convince ourselves, whose post are worth looking really closely.

That is something which I am sure has occurred to all of us (guilty and innocent alike), and one of which I am sure the Owl is only too aware. But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.

Admittedly, unless the Ducks slip up, this first Day will most likely provide little enlightenment to us while we are living through it. But things that are said now may prove helpful to us in the future. Remember, the Wereducks will be trying to maintain a semblance of innocence on the surface. But, underneath the water, their nasty little legs will be paddling furiously. We need to try to spot the guilty activity below the surface. And to do that, we all need to keep talking, and thereby force the Ducks to keep quacking or else stand out like targets in a shooting gallery.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by me

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out.

Oops! Being an Orc of little brain, I see that I misread mormegil's post. He wants to pay someone to help him out. Well, my comments stand. That's just selfish. Why should he be in any better position just because he is rich? Perhaps he is trying to buy innocents onto his side and thereby use them for his evil ends. I still don't like him. Filthy tark!

[Kath]

Ah I see Nilp has arrived!

I have little time right now, I've just seen a rainbow and must go catch it! But I will return later to see what's been going on.

[Mithalwen]

Just checking in here - I don't expect to be able to do much more than read what others have posted. As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options. On the first day it is a darned sight more useful than a lot of "oh woe is me Diamond is dead/ ooh I have had a hard morning knocking the saggar-makers bottoms" ...

However some peoples' professions just demand a few cheap and pointless jibes... but I shall resist for now....

[Mithalwen]

A few statistics:

12/17 have at least checked in thought there has been a vote. Waiting to hear from Roa, Lote22, JennyH, Elu Ancalime and Sleepy but allowing for timezones, school/ work ... no real significance there.

There are 7 non-ordos. So at least 2 must have posted already, statistically 4 is more likely... again that doesn't get us much further ..... Hope to be more helpful later....

[Sleepy Ranger]

I sense a disturbance in the force...

H'llo ladies and gentlemen, you all know me as Sleepy Ranger, I've never been anything significant in your community seeing how I've always stuck to myself but now... aye, now it seems you need all the help you can get and I'm here to offer all that I can.

Now then, as I state in all games my Day 1 vote will be random unless the seer decides to reveal themself today or unless its a very convincing case against someone. Now then, its always fun to see people take random jabs at occupations but I'm totally against using it as the basis of an arguement, Day 1 or whatever. If somebody votes because of occupation its no better (or worse) than a random vote, which ironically I have nothing against...

I'll check in later today, for now there are some matters that require my immediate attention. G'day!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by The Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options.

Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.

That's a strange way of putting it. Referring to them being "in league" makes it sound slightly sinister, whereas this is very much to our advantage. Still, I s'pose a Duck would have chosen her words more carefully ...

Originally Posted by Cailín

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.

That jumped out at me too. I would have thought that there are a number who could be in danger tonight, purely on the basis of reputation. Why pick on those two? Are you trying to set them up for a fall?

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

I disagree, as a matter of fact. Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence. I think Nilp probably has too much respect for his customs to perjure them...

I tell you what I'd like at some stage, when we've all talked a bit more. One of those nice, gently ironic, summary of everything posted so far posts by Lady Spawnowen (or is it Ghashspawnthrurg?) They have a rather stabilising effect, like a drink of water. Even when she's guilty...

So far my suspicions have tallied somewhat with those of the Saucepan Man-alarm at Cailin's doom-mongering coupled with a feeling morm might be a Goose. But this in itself makes me suspect Saucie-not, of course, because he's an Orc, but because us "thinking alike" seems far too neat. I have therefore studied his contributions in some detail...and think they're quite sensible. Argh.

Like Mithalwen, I don't tend to see baneful intent behind Nogrod's suggestion that we brainstorm about the Owl position. But I'm also starting to think that perhaps the Owl had better work it out for itself after all.

[Roa_Aoife]

*BAM!* *POW!* Holy Wereducks! A fowl plot is clearly afoot. Upon webbed feet, no less. What sinister mind could have spawned this scheme? Who among us would so boldly fly in the face of justice? I shall bend all of my mental powers to discerning this riddle. Hopefully my military experience will aid me in this quest.

Okay, I've had my fun. (For those of you who don't know, that was referencing the original Batman, which is far more comical than the current.) Well, several things I'd like to point out.

1. We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.

2. I actually understand not wanting to vote for certain people on Day 1. There are certain people in the village who can be a great help when they are innocent, and I certainly don't want them gone so quickly.

3. I find Nilp's self-vote annoying. Does he actually become more helpful if he survives Day 1? If so, leave him. If not, get rid of him. (This goes back to point 2.)

4. As a highly intelligent Jenny once said (even if she was a WereOrc), "Maybe the reason we can never find anything on Day 1 is because we all just sit around complaining about Day 1." (Maybe slightly off, but that was the gist of it.)

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! I should be in the fields scaring off birds. But there are some (rather hastily made) points which need answering.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence.

But that could be precisely what he wants us to think. The fact is that his self-vote does not give anything away, as it is what we would expect from him. It’s unhelpful, even in future days when Day 1 ramblings might reveal more. That’s why I am suspicious of him.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind.

It provokes the Owl into having to think how he or she should react to the discussion. And that in itself could lead to something being said which an observant Duck might pick up on. I am not saying that it will inevitably endanger the Owl. But it carries that risk. I would rather trust the Owl to make his or her own decisions.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance?

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.

I'm off to the fields now for a few hours. I'll be back later to see what has transpired.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.

Playing Morgoth's Advocate here somewhat, as I pretty much agree with you...again...accusations and suspicions may force the Ducks to think, to act and react, but they also are the only ones with knowledge and can chase us up many a gum-tree. They are therefore...well, exhilirating...to a Duck. Though they can admittedly put them on the defensive, it won't be a very pronounced defensive, as no one will admit to knowing anything solid.

On the other hand, there's very little else we can do. I think I narrowly prefer Saucie's "find some flimsy reasoning" basis to Sleepy's "random" basis. Random votes are almost always not random anyway...

I myself often surrender to the strong temptation to thrw analysis to the wind and spend the first day avenging some absurdly petty grudge...

Originally Posted by Roa

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

Nogrod and SPM? What do they have in common, based on your reasoning above? I don't quite see how Nogrod makes it.

And I think perhaps we should give Mith a chance. The statistical stuff was useful for a short post, if a bit disturbingly dispassionate, I suppose. She'll be back with Enlightenment.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

With this I truly agree! Day1 is a day as any other (well, not quite as any other), but a day when we have a chance to either succeed or fail... We need people around, trying to do something... and answering something. That's one of the reasons I have been quite fast to go for the silent-one's or random-voters on the day1. I think they disrepute the game, and the playing of it...

If everyone just declared a random vote, with one post on the first day, what would we have on the day2? Not much, but random accusations based on ill-informed hunches of those who had voted for an innocent to death... That's the kind of game the ducks would like to play. But we must fight back!

Why to give the day1 to the werecreatures for free, just hiding our own backs?

[Nogrod]

Ok.

The thing troubling me is, that the normally wise seer-tactics may not be good Owl tactics. I'm sure the Owl has gotten that. I don't think s/he is a dummy. But even the wise need assistance - and I'm not saying, I'm the one to assist the wise - but we all together.

See Lmp's game-planning in the TiG -thread. He's clearly an intelligent man - and has tested his game beforehand, but still there seem to be problems which he will have to revise. I myself like to go on coming up with theories, on how to protect the village the best way, and have handed them out for everyone to scrutinize. That way we have been able to abandon them, when they are faulty, or stick to them, when they are fine. I know that has brought about much controvesy, but that's the price one has to pay for playing to the village. So even as I totally trust our Owl to make her/his own decisions, we might try to help her/him. But I can't do it alone... Others need to join.

But I'll start, as no-one else seems ready to play openly (I know this is hard).

So. No tracks left after death.

What does this mean? Normal tactics (hanker down, gather information and reveal them when you have enough - and back yourself up by leaving hints behind you to be recollected after your death & general revealment of being the seer) might not be the best code of conduct here, as every day passing makes it more probable, that an untimely death comes to visit, and all has been in vain? All dreams totally lost?

Well that's my first question: is there any reasonable way for the shaman to work confidently for a longer period? In a normal game there is. But now any hinting might call the ducks around at night, and we rest would be left uniformed. Maybe it would be good, if we all ordos would go on hinting of our Owlish knowledge - just to confuse the ducks? I'm not sure about this one. In the bad instance, it would just leave us with even more confusion - if the ducks get the Owl untimely. But otherwise, it might give our Owl more time. So self-sacrifying villagers needed? I could personally go for this... if you others don't bring good cases against it.

My second question: the Owl might have a dream of a wolf. What to do? In a normal game - if the situation is not desperate - the seer could just go on unnoticed (leaving a track). But now? Is it wise to possibly die with a knowledge of one duck? This I found a hounting question. Can you others see the advantages or disadvantages of this situation better than me? There might be some reasons to reveal oneself after one duck-dream. But then, I see, that at least myself, I would be somewhat hesitant, wanting to go on with the game and hoping for the best... Or do we have ways to make those dreams known? I understand, these should not be discussed here, as there we might come to the area Spm was worried about - and I am too. But just saying, there is, would help the Owl, and make her/him think more clearly. And before you just say: that must be a duck, trying to make our Owl reveal her/himself prematurely, just think about the logic of this game! The Owl is not a seer...

EDIT: X-posted with Spm and Ang

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

Give me a chance girl!!!!I did all I could in the time available. Now at least I have something to look at. And I refer you to this post .

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Incidentally, morm's back on form, but I still suspect him. He has made a possibility that the Goose will employ this ruse into a certainty. He has ensured that the Owl will not be believed till they deliver results. Hmm.

Ang, Ang, Ang, you are not only obtuse and circumlocutious but you are also instransigent yet it all adds to your individual charm. All I did was point out something in advance to the owl so that he/she wouldn't fall for a ploy that may be employed by the goose. Now the goose may be reticent to employ said tactic. So I saved our owl from making a grevious error, perhaps and helped to stultify a ploy that could have been effective; yet all in all I can see why you'd think I'm still suspicious. So by all means carry on and keep reaching for that rainbow.

[Valier]

Well I have read through and I noticed that Nogrod,SPM,Roa and Ang are all going at it. I know in most *ahem* games Nogrod is always the first to urge awareness of the gifted and Roa normally has something to say about it. SPM I have not played alot with ,but I am pretty sure this is how he plays. and Ang...well he normally gets killed fairly quickly. First day analysising is useless for me...so I won't do it. It is nice to see a loud village though for once. I say we look at the quiet ones who tend to slip below the radar for most of the game and not lynch our loud and multiple talkers.

[Mithalwen]

Traditionally, I have tended to find first and early posting suspicious but this theory has been less reliable of late and I seem to recall that Glirdan, Morm and Valier have posted early before without proving guilty. In anycase these are "I'm here posts" . Unremarkable so far but we are only an hour in.

More interesting is Cailín stating so early who she is not voting for. this could be a hint at giftedness or a duck-trick or a bluff or nothing. Since only the ducks are a gang of three to name two others would be a bold move for a wolf. However the Owl and the Hawk/Nightingale Alliance/Combo/Whatever to avoid creeping out the Saucepan Orc (!), with the use of what I regarded as a neutral term "league", know about one other so to name two might be a fudge. However it seems a clumsy and premature tactic. I don't know Cailín much from personal experience but she has the reputation which suggests greater sophistication. So this is a puzzle which perhaps will become clearer. At this stage I am very much just tossing balls in the air and seeing what happens.

Ang makes the first attempt address the situation seriously. That is a mark in his favour but I must not be prejudiced by my fondness for Mozartian opera -Hopsassa! As a birdcatcher he could prove useful unless he has developed webbed feet Slightly puzzled by his reference to the words about the seer?

Then follows a lot of stating of the obvious regarding the conditions (again understandable - I rather think my first post counts as such)... and Nilp's self vote.

For now I will take this as an honourable route if it is the only participation possible. I don't know if he makes a habit of this but I shall not necessarily be always so lenient. Non-participation makes life so difficult for the true villagers and often plays into the hands of the "three".

Long and insubstantial post from SpM followed by a short but pertinent one by Kath. I seem to remember SpM being Mr- Strategy- and- Plans in previous times.... seems a bit off ..... especially since he goes after Nogrod who could be seen as picking up on Lalaith's sensible suggestion to discuss general strategy.

I am going to break up this post since there have been quite a lot of posts since I started this and there may well be more profitable ways to spend my time. Especially since you have more time to read through the posts for yourselves than I have to decide my vote.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.

Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).

I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind. As I said earlier, this is just so different situation, as we will not have a track-record to trail after, if s/he dies. That's why I thought we could help the Owl by trying our best. Were I an Owl, I would appreciate the help (I was a seer in my first ever game, and boy was I lost! - and with this new rule, it's not obvious, that the traditional tactics apply).

And making arguments have this nice quality, that they can be shared - so no wolfy-orcsy-ducky scheming in there - as everyone can see a good point and a bad point... The duckies might want to twist good arguments by downplaying their worth, by attacking them rhetorically, or whatever. But even a duck can't twist 2+2 to 17,453...

So Saucepanman: your posts just quoted up above, put you in the head of my suspicion list to begin with...

1) the counter-argument is just a bad one (and as I have the impression of you being an intelligent person - that just calls to see foul-play in it).

2) Your second point: "In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing" could be seen as a rhetorical turn-around, trying deliberately to twist us out from helping the Owl, to loosely thrown out and about suspicions about other people (& trying to make yourself look like considerate person).

3) And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance? At least it's not a call to have any discussion, that would reveal anyone's attitudes - or would make them slip anything.

This is just, what I would like all of us to be wary of! Sensible points put down or twisted, or set aside, with no real arguments, but leaning on other grounds like rhetorics, charisma, earlier renown, whatever...

Spm. I know, that a good and thinking villager might be doing something like the thing you are doing - opening some, even shallowly grounded - suspicions by casting his eye anywhere to find something doubtful on the first day. It's always better to have a reason for one's vote, even in the first day. You should see, that I'm doing exactly the same thing here.

EDIT: X-posted with Ang