DoV/RotS: the outline and editing discussions

[Maédhros]

Here are some changes that I would like to introduce:
DoV-UM-02.5A

He it was that in his youth, bettering the work of Rumil, made those letters which bear his name, and which ever since the Eldar have used; yet this was the least of his works. For he it was that first of the Noldor discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the Earth might be made with skill. And the first gems that Fëanor devised were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and white fires brighter than Helluin. And other crystals he made, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the Eagles of Manwë. <VT39 He is said also, {being then in his youth before the days of his discontent,} to have learned mostly from Aulë “more than any other of the Eldar in Arda” of the language of the Valar. {This he got mostly from Aule}> Seldom were the hand and mind of Fëanor at rest.

I wonder if we should replace the Mahtan name with Sarmo as with note 61 of the Shibboleth. I think that because the name Sarmo comes with an ?, we should not change it.

DoV-UM-02.5B

Her father, Mahtan, <SF [who] was most widely known as Urundil 'copper-lover' >, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë, <SF for he was an Aulendur and entered into {Aulë’s} [the Vala’s] service>. <SF He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Ñoldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. > Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things of metal and stone.

DoV-UM-02.5C

Seven sons she bore to Fëanor, and it is not recorded in the histories of old that any others of the Eldar had so many children. <SF Of {Nerdanel's}[their] seven children the oldest, and the twins (a very rare thing among the Eldar) had [brown] hair [with coppery-red in it] {of this kind}. The eldest also wore a copper circlet.> With her wisdom at first she restrained Fëanor when the fire of his heart burned too hot; but his later deeds grieved her and they became estranged.

DoV-UN-00

Most fair of all was Melkor's countenance to the Eldar, and he aided them in many works, if they would let him. The Vanyar indeed held him in suspicion, for they dwelt in the light of the Trees and were content; and to the Teleri he gave little heed, deeming them of little worth, tools too weak for his designs. But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them{;}<OK {In Valinor} [for] Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters"{.}[,]> and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard.

This is from Osanwe-kenta.

DoV-DV-11

One thing only marred the hope of Manwë. Fëanor came indeed, for he read the message of Manwë as a command; but Finwë would not come and remained in Formenos, and with him were the sons of Fëanor. For said Finwë: 'While the ban lasts upon Fëanor, my son, that he may not go to Túna, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people <AA , nor those that rule in my stead> .' And Fëanor did not come in raiment of festival, and he wore no ornament, neither silver nor gold nor any gem; and he denied the sight of the Silmarils to the Valar and the Eldar, and left them in Formenos, locked in a chamber of iron.

DoV-FM-08

§28 The wedding of the father {was not pleasing to} <SF filled > Fëanor <SF with anger and resentment>; and though it did not lessen the love between them, Fëanor <SF felt that Míriel was condemned to remain for ever discarnate, so that he could never again visit her or speak with her, unless he himself should die. This grieved him, and he grudged the happiness of Finwë and Indis, and was unfriendly to their children, even before they were born.>{had no great love for Indis or her children.} As soon as he might he lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the lore and the crafts in which he delighted.

I will reply to your changes Findegil, when I have the whole text.

[Findegil]

Gerneral remark:
I would like to re-name your references. In XX-YY-ZZA, XX-YY-ZZb and so on the "A" should refer to different version of the same change. But that is not the case in your suggestions. Therefor let make it:

DoV-UM-02.5A => DoV-UM-02.2
DoV-UM-02.5B => DoV-UM-02.5
DoV-UM-02.5C => DoV-UM-02.7
DoV-UN-00 => DoV-UM-00.5 (I do'nt like zero to much.)

Now to your suggestions;
DoV-UM-02.5A => DoV-UM-02.2: Agreed, but why do we delet a part of this?

DoV-UM-02.5B => DoV-UM-02.5: Agreed.

DoV-UM-02.5C => DoV-UM-02.7: Agreed.

DoV-UN-00 => DoV-UM-00.5: Agreed.

Mathan => Sarmo: I second this change but have to lock deper into the sources. I would like also to have Aiwendils input here.

Maedhros I tried to send you a complet set of all TftE text but it failed. See your mail about this.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Maedhros I tried to send you a complet set of all TftE text but it failed. See your mail about this.

Thanks, I received it and it is great.

DoV-UM-02.5A => DoV-UM-02.2: Agreed, but why do we delet a part of this?

I deleted it because in the first part of the paragraph, there is a statement that he was in his youth, but if you and Aiwendil feel that it is ok to keep it, that's ok with me.

DoV-FM-00.5

§3 Míriel was the name of his mother. Her hair was like silver; and she was slender as a white flower in the grass. Soft and sweet was her voice, and she sang as she worked, like rippling water, in music without words. For her hands were more skilled to make things fine and delicate than any other hands even among the Noldor. By her the craft of needles was devised; and if but one fragment of the broideries of Míriel were seen in Middle-earth it would be held dearer than a king's realm; for the richness of her devices and the fire of their colours were as manifold and as bright as the wealth of leaf and flower and wing in the fields of Yavanna. Therefore she was called Serindë <SF a name which she had indeed already been given as a 'mother-name'. >.+
It was the only reference that we have of Míriel having a mother name.

Mathan => Sarmo: I second this change but have to lock deper into the sources. I would like also to have Aiwendils input here.

I will post here the whole note for ease of reference:
From Shibboleth of Fëanor:

[On a separate page written at the same time is a note on the father of Nerdanel (Fëanor's wife);
Nerdanel's father was an 'Aulendil' [> 'Aulendur'], and became a great smith. He loved copper, and set it above gold. His name was [space; pencilled later Sarmo?], but he was most widely known as Urundil 'copper-lover'. He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Ñoldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. Of Nerdanel's seven children the oldest, and the twins (a very rare thing among the Eldar) had hair of this kind. The eldest also wore a copper circlet.
A note is appended to Aulendur:
'Servant of Aule': sc. one who was devoted to that Vala. It was applied especially to those persons, or families, among the Ñoldor who actually entered Aule's service, and who in return received instruction from him.
A second note on this page comments on the name Urundil:
RUN 'red, glowing', most often applied to things like embers, hence adjective runya, Sindann ruin '"fiery" red'. The Eldar had words for some metals, because under Orome's instruction they had devised weapons against Morgoth's servants especially on the March, but the only ones that appear in all Eldarin languages were iron, copper, gold and silver (ANGA, URUN, MALAT, KYELEP).
Earlier Nerdanel's father, the great smith, had been named Mahtan (see X.272, 277), and he was so called in the published Silmarillion. For earlier statements concerning the arming of the Eldar on the Great Journey see X.276-7, 281.]

[Findegil]

I know that this might be again a endless discussion but I would take up the Footnote to Aulendur along with passage about Mahtan/ Sarmo.

Sarmo is the right choice for his name for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

know that this might be again a endless discussion but I would take up the Footnote to Aulendur along with passage about Mahtan/ Sarmo.

Do you mean like this:

Her father, Mahtan, <SF [who] was most widely known as Urundil 'copper-lover' >, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë, <SF for he was an Aulendur* and entered into {Aulë’s} [the Vala’s] service>. <SF He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Ñoldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. > Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things of metal and stone.

* 'Servant of Aule': sc. one who was devoted to that Vala. It was applied especially to those persons, or families, among the Ñoldor who actually entered Aule's service, and who in return received instruction from him.

Or did you have something different in mind?

Regarding Sarmo, I too think that we should use Sarmo, but the thing that makes me wonder is the ? in the end of the name. That is why I hesitate to change it.

DoV-UM-02.1

During that time Fëanor dwelt in the care of his father. Soon he began to show forth the skills in hand and mind of both Finwë and Míriel. As he grew from childhood he became ever more like Finwë in stature and countenance{, but in mood he resembled Míriel rather}. <SF Fëanor loved his mother dearly, though except in obstinacy their characters were widely different. He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met not with the quiet steadfastness of his mother but with fierce resentment. He was restless in mind and body, though like Míriel he could become wholly absorbed in works of the finest skill of hand; but he left many things unfinished.> His will was strong and determined, and he pursued all his purposes both eagerly and steadfastly. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force.

[Aiwendil]

I agree about Sarmo (actually, I could have sworn we discussed this before, but I could not find any such thread). It seems fairly clear to me that Sarmo is the later name - and even if it was followed by a question mark, it indicates that "Mahtan" had been rejected (or forgotten, which I suppose amounts to the same thing).

I also have no problem with the footnote.

See, Findegil, not an endless discussion - unless Maedhros objects.

[Findegil]

Nice. The Footnote is as I wanted it.

DoV-UM-02.1 Agreed.

Anything else?

Respectfully
Findegil