Of another world

[alatar]

My apologies, davem if you took my post as another of the 'the poster's deluded' kind.

My point is that there are things that we can test. Your UFO experience is not one of those. It happened and may never occur ever again. We'll never know, and, as you, I really don't care what persons believe about it.

Your tarot experience is another thing entire. You may be done with it, but it shows that you believe that 'something worked.' I assume that your future was foretold? How does that work? Is there a 'future' out there that can be read? Does the future already exist?

Did the reader provide some clairvoyantly-acquired information? If so, in what medium does that information travel?

Whatever. I just thought it interesting that you discount the existence of a god yet seemingly accept a magical universe. And don't worry about my world view; if you say it works, then that's good enough for me. Just like others have belief systems that work for them (and me ), we all exist, as I think you said, in our own secondary worlds. In my world, if I cannot test it, then it's not that interesting...unless I'm discussing it on a web forum. Sometimes the explanation is not angels nor devils, quantum mechanical vibrations or auras, but that we do not yet know.

Gaps indeed.

And regarding cold reading: in the example that I gave I was not showing how much better/smarter I was (I have a lot to learn and always try to keep that in mind), but that there is a simpler explanation for 'psychic abilities.' Same with faith healers. The point here is that scientists are as blind as the rest of us, and we may be expert at some things, but there are areas in which we are wide open to the fake.

Because we want to believe so much, we do not see clearly. I do it too (though am too proud to ever admit it).

Humans create paintings and dollar bills. Some are legit; some not, and some so cleverly made that it's hard to tell the difference. All are made by people just like you and me. So why do we seek to limit the abilities of humans (benign and otherwise)? Why cannot psychic abilities simply be someone adept at reading people and telling them what they want to hear? Nope. Too mundane. Have to add the supernatural to really sell it.

Maybe Ar-Pharazôn knew, down deep, that Sauron was playing him for the fool and that crossing the Ban would be his downfall. But did his pride take hold, driving out his rationality, making him believe even his own lies?

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Did the reader provide some clairvoyantly-acquired information? If so, in what medium does that information travel?

I'm afraid I was that 'reader'. I read for myself & gained a deal of insight into myself - which is the main purpose of Tarot.

Whatever. I just thought it interesting that you discount the existence of a god yet seemingly accept a magical universe. And don't worry about my world view; if you say it works, then that's good enough for me. Just like others have belief systems that work for them (and me ), we all exist, as I think you said, in our own secondary worlds.

I neither accept nor reject a 'magical universe' (or of a God either). I have had 'experiences' which are part of my universe (magical or not).

So why do we seek to limit the abilities of humans (benign and otherwise)? Why cannot psychic abilities simply be someone adept at reading people and telling them what they want to hear? Nope. Too mundane. Have to add the supernatural to really sell it.

I don't see why they shouldn't be. But neither do I see proof that are. I'm really not all that interested in explaining things away. Its boring for one thing. I'd rather live in a universe that includes Elves & Fairies, Tarot & Astrology, but that's just me. I want mystery, the unknown. That's my main problem with restrictive 'religions' & belief systems. I like the idea of turning a corner & meeting an angel, or laying out cards & learning something I didn't know. I have no desire either to have them 'explained' to me by a religious or or explained away by a scientist, because what both are saying is that I can only have them on (if at all) their terms.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see why they shouldn't be. But neither do I see proof that are. I'm really not all that interested in explaining things away. Its boring for one thing. I'd rather live in a universe that includes Elves & Fairies, Tarot & Astrology, but that's just me. I want mystery, the unknown. That's my main problem with restrictive 'religions' & belief systems. I like the idea of turning a corner & meeting an angel, or laying out cards & learning something I didn't know. I have no desire either to have them 'explained' to me by a religious or or explained away by a scientist, because what both are saying is that I can only have them on (if at all) their terms.

Guess that I'm just bitter . So many times in my youth I wanted to 'believe' (aliens, Bigfoot, life-after-death, magic, etc), yet time and time again when I would look a little closer - obviously a character flaw - the facade would fall flat.

Maybe that's why I like LotR so much. For a time, when reading, viewing or listening, I can actually suspend disbelief and walk in that secondary world where magic exists as the world is so well constructed that I don't see the seams. Intentionally.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Guess that I'm just bitter . So many times in my youth I wanted to 'believe' (aliens, Bigfoot, life-after-death, magic, etc), yet time and time again when I would look a little closer - obviously a character flaw - the facade would fall flat.

So for you now all the Dollar bills are fake, even the ones you haven't examined?

Remember how you felt when you thought they were 'real'? Its that feeling that matters.

I'm not sure any of the things you mentioned have been 'disproven', merely that they haven't been 'proved' (ie no gap has been found in the current scientific model to fit them into).

Personally, I like the idea of all of them, but refuse to believe in any of them. Or disbelieve in any of them come to that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

So for you now all the Dollar bills are fake, even the ones you haven't examined?

If you come across any US dollar bills, I would happily examine them (and, mostly likely, report them to be fake...though we might find me suddenly a little too happy to be explained by chance.)

Remember how you felt when you thought they were 'real'? Its that feeling that matters.

I do, and thankfully my children/life stil provide me with that feeling. I need not look too far to find that sense of wonder. On the other hand, I remember all too well the feelings of betrayal when 'I'd been had.' It's a balancing act, to be sure.

Some might say that I've been betrayed not by God or the spiritual world but by their earthly exemplars, but, alas, here we are. You can even see this in my comments in the SbS, as PJ did not make the movies as I saw them (imagine that ).

Again I think that's why the books work so well; I can gloss over the errors, everything is how I would have it, and in the end, there's something in which to believe.