The Ring of Saruman?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.

Yes, that was rather my point. The image of Saruman spawning Orcs from the earth is one that comes solely from the films. And, as narfforc points out, the quote you gave doesn't even require the notion of genetic engineering. Gandalf's reference to Saruman's "foul craft" might simply be to a straightforward, albeit repellent, cross-breeding programme.

One issue on which Rhod might have a point, however, is the swiftness with which Saruman appears to have been able to build up such a large force of Orcs. There was a thread on this a while back. I cannot remember the exact dates, but I do recall the suggestion that there simply wasn't enough time (between the date upon which Saruman is said to have begun amassing his army and the year of the War of the Ring) for him to breed such a huge army. Perhaps some magic was involved in the process, although there is no suggestion that this was the purpose of his Ring.

I rather agree that, if the Ring had any power, it was directed towards enhancing the user's natural abilities - in Saruman's case, his voice in particular.

I wonder if it allowed the user to become invisible? Doubtful, I suppose, because otherwise Saruman would have used it to this end at some point, for example to avoid the Black Riders or escape Treebeard.

Do we know if he still had it when he staged the Shire coup? Surely Gandalf would have relieved him of it when he was cornered at Isengard.

[Rhod the Red]

Perhaps it lost its power with the destruction of the One Ring? Otherwise Gandalf would have tried to confiscate it, I guess.

[Lalwendë]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that there is nothing said about the fate of Saruman's Ring, so it is possible he took it into the Shire with him. When he was killed I would imagine the ring was picked up by the Hobbits, maybe to languish in a Mathom House?

Or did Sam pick it up?

If it had any kind of property that helped in Saruman's Orc breeding programme, was it an influence on Sam's own personal Hobbit breeding programme?

[narfforc]

Putting two and two together, brings us to the conclusion that Saruman got lots of presents from Orcs on Fathers Day.....Ha-Ha

[Mänwe]

My take on the matter is in agreement with the majority of the comments made. You are agreed that his ring was one not nearly as potent as the Ruling Ring, it was in all intent and purposes a disaster.

It is clear that he made it because he had the skill with which to do so, you have all said he was Mair of Aule;

"...but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft." -

"But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history." - Silmarillion, Of the Rings Of Power

However it becomes clear that his studying of the art is something that he did not gain to a great proficiency. Otherwise had he learnt the secrets that Sauron had learnt and used in the forging of the Ruling Ring, then he would have had no need to have searched for it. Thus I think it is likely his ring was an experimentation, the pinnacle of his skill for his time was ever devoted to the search of the One.

'Sauman uses the term Ring-maker and Gandalf tells us that Saruman had a ring on his finger- but the logic chain connecting the two is tenuous indeed.

There is absolutely no overwhelming objective evidence to show that Gandalf's comment and Saruman's statement are in any way aligned.

The term Ring-maker is one of the names of Sauron, and the significance of Saruman using that term is that in his pride and folly he is setting himself up to rival the Dark Lord- and seeking to impress/intimidate Gandalf in doing so. (Gandalf is already aware of this name as one for Sauron -cf. FOTR-The Shadow of the Past).

If Saruman had been referring to himself as one who has made a ring he would have said 'ring-maker' - uncapitalized. The capitalized version 'Ring-maker' is one of Sauron's names - and Saruman would be well aware of this.

Moreover, we know from HOME 7 The Treason of Isengard , that Tolkien had removed a reference that might have inclined the reader towards thinking that Saruman had created a ring, and included the term Ring-maker only in the published version. It does not appear in earlier drafts.

An examination of the relevant drafts of the Council of Elrond shows the following:

The Council of Elrond(1) 'He wore a ring on his finger ' stands, but there is no reference to Ring-maker.

The Council of Elrond(2) as (1) but with the inclusion of a comment preceding "He wore" which states , 'and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near to the secret of their making.'

This too, disappears from the published version.

And, even if we assume, for arguments sake, that he had made a Ring, and the evidence is far too slight to prove that he had, it clearly had been a wasted effort as it is never referred to again in the whole of Lord of the Rings and apparently was put to no use whatsoever.

I think on balance that Saruman did not make a Ring, which is why Tolkien made the textual amendments between the earlier drafts and the final form.

[narfforc]

Sorry Manwe but I do not agree. Let us look at the one sentence, in which he describes himself:

1. Saruman the Wise, well that goes without saying, he was so he thought.

2. Saruman of Many Colours, he is not telling us how many different coloured undergarments he possessed, Gandalf tells us the truth of this statement.

3. Saruman Ring-maker, ?

So how can we believe one part of the statement and not another, if Tolkien left that in the published version of his work, whilst alive, then that is one that counts.
So if Saruman was only calling himself Ring-maker because it was one of the multitude of names attached to Sauron, why didnt Tolkien include that as an explanation, because the words speak for themselves, we don't need an explanation.

Now if Gandalf had not mentioned a Ring, it would have given more weight to your argument ie: if Gandalf had only mentioned the words Ring-maker.

[Mänwe]

nafforc can we be certain though that Saruman made it? Although there are quotes to show that he was skilled at craft, the ring we could surmise although there is no reference to this, could be one of Aules making, a sigil that showed he was a Mair of Aule.

I apologise for not making my mind clear as I meant. I as ever strive to produce a balanced post, one that usually contradicts my own arguement. I think the most important part of the post is really my conclusion, which holds in agreement with every one else; there is simply not enough information to prove either way.

[ninja91]

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks...

[ninja91]

Well, the point is that we dont know what this ring of Saruman could do. It is possible that it was on par with the great rings, but it was never able to be used to its full extent, probably because Saruman did not live much in the mind of evil to put it to terrible purposes.