The Westward Road - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien · 05-12-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oooh don't forget that Nazgul and Water don't mix!!!! All Glorfindel (who can face down all of them at once more or less) would have to do is light a torch and the Ring wraith would be caught between their least favourite elements.

He should just be careful not to set the sails on fire...

But that is, actually, a good point. If the nazgûl didn't like water (which I totally forgot though I last read that part from LotR only a few weeks ago

), Sauron couldn't have sent them to the Sea. I don't mean that he wasn't capable of forcing them to go there. But I think the result would have been a disaster.

Mithalwen · 05-12-2006, 12:57 PM

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that (though there is a theory that military intelligence is an oxymoron - but my pa would kill me for saying that!). Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea.

Thinlómien · 05-12-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that .

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P

Quote:

Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea

Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right?

)

davem · 05-12-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right?

)

I think that refers to the road west through M-e, not to the Straight Road.

Mithalwen · 05-12-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P
Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right?

)

Don't worry Lommy.

I am sure that the penguins were agents of Ulmo who of all the Valar maintained the the most interest in ME. Crustaceans however were servants of the dark lord

Rhod the Red · 05-13-2006, 03:06 AM

What positive difference would the casting of the One Ring into the Sea have been? while the power of the Three Rings would have been preserved, so would have Saurons' existance.

If you mean as in to take it to Mordor via the Sea, well, that's covered in the Why Moria? thread.

Tuor in Gondolin · 05-13-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

If it was cast into the depths of the Sea it would still exist, & therefore so would Sauron, & hence he would win, because he is far more powerful than his opponents. Sauron des not need the Ring to achieve victory - which is already assured - the only thing that can defeat him is its destruction & the only place it can be destroyed is the place of its forging - in Middle-earth.

But the Ring would make not only a Sauron victory more likely,
but also more long lasting, hence it would be an at least short-term
(in years and more) plus to deny it to him.

Quote:

The enemy is fast becoming very strong...We should be very
hard put to it, even if it were not for this dreadful chance. The Enemy
still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down
all resistance, break the last defenses, and cover all the lands in a
second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.

The Shadow Of The Past

davem · 05-13-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But the Ring would make not only a Sauron victory more likely,
but also more long lasting, hence it would be an at least short-term
(in years and more) plus to deny it to him.

Not sure I see this. There are two problems with merely keeping the One from Sauron - he continues to exist & grow in power & the Ring would work on anyone in its vicinity (in fact on anyone who knew of its existence). Hence, Sauron gets stronger & the desire for the Ring grows on those opposing him - particularly as their position gets more desperate.

Thinlómien · 05-13-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Don't worry Lommy.
I am sure that the penguins were agents of Ulmo who of all the Valar maintained the the most interest in ME. Crustaceans however were servants of the dark lord

Hmm.. And I'm so sure leopard seals spied for Sauron!

I think there is some evidence about the road from Rivendell/Shire to Grey Havens baing watched. The wandering nazgûl, the ruffians and half-orcs in Breeland and the crebain. As the crebain and the ruffians were mostly in Saruman's service, I'm intrigued by the possibility that Sauron used Saruman to guard the Westward Road...

Lalwendë · 05-13-2006, 02:46 PM

It's interesting to think of how that could have been done and what might have happened, but ultimately, there was only one answer.

The Ring really had to be 'unmade' as far as was possible. Some power drawn from Mount Doom was inherent to the Ring, and so it could only really be destroyed there. Yes, there may have been great powers in valinor which could protect the Ring, maybe even destroy it, but this destruction would not have been as 'complete' as a destruction in the place of its making.

In the end, returning the Ring to Mount Doom did not only destroy it and put it forever beyond Sauron's reach, but it also helped to undo much of the bad work he had done, work that was done with the aid of the power (whether real or psychological) from the Ring.

In a way, I'm reminded of an organism which is not meant to endure beyond time, which in the end has to go back to the earth and fire from which it sprang.

Got some mad thoughts now but I can't get them into words as I've just had a pint.

Rhod the Red · 05-16-2006, 05:42 AM

Taking the Ring West, even as part of the effort to destroy the Ring, even if it was safe to travel to Gondor that way, would only have risked(to use Legolas' phrase) more lives of Gondorians at the Anduin battles, I fear.

05-12-2006, 12:57 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that (though there is a theory that military intelligence is an oxymoron - but my pa would kill me for saying that!). Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-13-2006, 03:06 AM	#6
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	What positive difference would the casting of the One Ring into the Sea have been? while the power of the Three Rings would have been preserved, so would have Saurons' existance. If you mean as in to take it to Mordor via the Sea, well, that's covered in the Why Moria? thread. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-13-2006, 02:46 PM	#10
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	It's interesting to think of how that could have been done and what might have happened, but ultimately, there was only one answer. The Ring really had to be 'unmade' as far as was possible. Some power drawn from Mount Doom was inherent to the Ring, and so it could only really be destroyed there. Yes, there may have been great powers in valinor which could protect the Ring, maybe even destroy it, but this destruction would not have been as 'complete' as a destruction in the place of its making. In the end, returning the Ring to Mount Doom did not only destroy it and put it forever beyond Sauron's reach, but it also helped to undo much of the bad work he had done, work that was done with the aid of the power (whether real or psychological) from the Ring. In a way, I'm reminded of an organism which is not meant to endure beyond time, which in the end has to go back to the earth and fire from which it sprang. Got some mad thoughts now but I can't get them into words as I've just had a pint. __________________ Gordon's alive!

05-16-2006, 05:42 AM	#11
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	Taking the Ring West, even as part of the effort to destroy the Ring, even if it was safe to travel to Gondor that way, would only have risked(to use Legolas' phrase) more lives of Gondorians at the Anduin battles, I fear. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

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