Gandalf a "steward?"

[davem]

Well, Aragorn has a claim to the Kingship, but if no-one accepts him he isn't technically king. Where is it stated (or even implied) that Boromir has accepted Aragorn's kingship? He says 'Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!'. That's it. Now, of course, the guys about to croak, so he doesn't have time to go through an oath of fealty & all the rest of the rigmarole, so it could be taken as an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship. On the other hand, it could be taken as Boromir the Captain Genereal of Gondor giving an order to a subordinate. Having said that he does clearly believe that Aragorn has some chance of doing that.

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

..............

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony...

you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you....

...if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

This discussion is intriguing, though it has strayed far from its original topic (as threads often do).

Regarding the legitimacy of Aragorn's claim to the throne, I point out again that his claim to the throne was as the Heir of Elendil, not as the Heir of Isildur. He was the only man on Middle-earth who could inherit any of Elendil's rights and properties. I would also add that, though it makes little difference, he was descended from Anarion as well as Isildur, for Arvedui had wedded Firiel, daughter of King Ondoher and a direct descendant of Anarion.
I would also add that the Council of Gondor likely was a sort of Supreme Court, where decisions might be made and then overturned. Obviously, allowing Aragorn to become king overturned the decision against Arvedui way back when. So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.

Of course, one may fire back that I have a vested interest in defending Aragorn's right to the throne, since he is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien. This is a genetic fallacy, but it is sadly also true. With that, I leave you.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.

I think it would come under 'Not Proven'. Yes, the Council's decisions could be overturned, but the Arvedui decision had not yet been overturned when Boromir died (or when Denethor died, come to that).

It was Aragorn's generalship in the war which won him the Kingship - his ancestry was merely the 'icing on the cake'. If the West had won the war but he'd proved an incompetent leader I've no doubt that even if his ancestry was accepted by all & sundry he'd have fared no better than Arvedui. They wanted the victorious warrior, the wise counselor whose hands brought healing & as soon as there was evidence of some hereditary connection with the Royal House his position was assured. In other words, what got him the kingship was his prowess & leadership qualities, not his blood.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Davem

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

You are arguing Pelendur's case- a case that did not wish to see a stranger from the North sit as his king. Quite apart from the Boromir issue, where I play Devil's Advocate more than Defence Attorney, I would disagree with Pelendur's ruling. Quite possibly, Gondor would have agreed with Arvedui -and me- had he been but able to come to Gondor and put forward his case properly and in person. But Angmar threatened and such things were not possible.

That does not negate, however the fact that Isildur's Line had a legitimate claim. Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

Furthermore, although Pelendur and the Council of Gondor reject Arvedui's claim, it seems clear that Tolkien does not. Since Tolkien is the creator of Middle-Earth, he ought to be it's final authority, no?

*Insert HERE Davem's counter-argument that Tolkien is enjoying his Translator's Conceit and that this is simply that Translator's opinion on the subject, and does not need to be taken as fact. To save time, I'll state that I disagree with that opinion emphatically.*

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

Whether or not Boromir accepted Aragorn as Rightful King, we cannot demonstrate clearly from the texts. My reading of it says that he did. My reading of it also says that Balrogs have no wings, that Elves have normalish ears, and that it is fundamentally Catholic. There is, on any of these topics, no clear, complete statement that makes it completely obvious to everyone what is the case- though there are certainly enough statements that from my point of view it ought to be OBVIOUS.

Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did.

And, somewhat offtopically, for the record, I hold James II (Stuart) to have been Rightful King of England, his son to have been the rightful James III, and Bonnie Prince Charlie to have been the Rightful King Charles III (which would thus have made the current Prince Charles, Charles IV). This could possibly have something to do with my Catholic upbringing: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's".

[davem]

Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

As I said, 'Not Proven'. Hence, to be decided - & not by the Heir of Isildur, Gandalf, Manwe or Illuvatar, but by the Council & people of Gondor. Do you see Gandalf being able to impose Aragorn on the people of Gondor if they didn't want him? He could only become king when the people accepted him. And I have to say that if Arvedui had turned up in Gondor, with the history of Arnor behind him, I'm not sure the Gondorians would have welcomed him with open arms. The Arnorian kings were just not all that impressive a prospect. For all Pelendur's arguments I think he was just stating the simple truth in a roundabout way - the Arnorians weren't wanted. I can see that Pelendur's arguments are maybe not watertight, but I can also see a good reason for the Gondorians to want to keep the Arnorian kings away from sharp objects not to mention the Throne of Gondor....

[The Saucepan Man]

Davem, I beg to differ.

Originally Posted by davem

What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again.

And what you are leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir pledged himself to the Fellowship and to its Quest. Under the malign influence of the Ring, preying on his own wish to defend his people, he broke that pledge. I believe that it would have been the realisation of his folly and his genuine repentance that would have guided his actions, had he survived the encounter at Parth Galen. And I believe that he would therefore have sought to honour his pledge. Of course, none of them were bound to remain with the Fellowship, and Boromir had already indicated his intention to part with the company if they were not willing to accompany him to Minas Tirith.

Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in. 'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

However, that intention was stated before the events of Parth Galen, and at a time while he was still under the influence of the Ring. The sentence that I have emboldened is important, I think. Despite the Ring's influence, this is the "untainted" Boromir speaking. He would not desert his friends at need.

He had already shown compassion for the Hobbits, when the Fellowship was beset by cruel weather on Caradhras.

But I wanted rest and sleep, Bilbo, Frodo answered with an effort, when he felt himself shaken, and he came back painfully to wakefulness. Boromir had lifted him off the ground out of a nest of snow.
'This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir. 'It is useless to sit here until the snow goes over our heads. We must do something to save ourselves.'

'Have hope!' said Boromir. 'I am weary, but I still have some strength left, and Aragorn too. We will bear the little folk. The others no doubt will make shift to tread the path behind us. Come, Master Peregrin! I will begin with you.'

Add to that the fact that he had willingly undertaken to protect Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen.

'We shall all be scattered and lost,' groaned Aragorn. 'Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo. Come back to this spot, if you find him, or any traces of him. I shall return soon.'

Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection.

Had he survived, both his compassion and his sense of duty (to the Fellowship and more particularly to Merry and Pippin), now free of the Ring's influence, would, I believe him to have led him to accept and follow Aragorn's decision to follow after them. Indeed, I believe that it is a course which he himself would have advocated.

You are right that Boromir and Faramir are not the same person. But the difference between them was in wisdom and judgment, not compassion and sense of duty.

Thinking further on this, there are some interesting parallels here between Faramir and Pippin. Boromir protected Faramir as a child and he is protective towards Pippin both on Caradhras and at Parth Galen. Pippin is later, in Minas Tirith, associated closely with Faramir, being the one who effectively saves his life and later naming his own son after him. I am not saying that Boromir saw his brother in Pippin, but there is certainly a connection of sorts between these three characters, and this reinforces my belief concerning Boromir’s likely choice, had he survived Parth Galen.

[Rhod the Red]

"Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection."

Hear, hear!

[tom bombariffic]

I agree.

Also, forgive me if this is a little obvious, but...

Oricinally posted by Formendacil:
Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did

None of the fellowship, or anyone in a position of influence of Gondor, would have realised that Gandalf was a representative of Manwe. I understand you may have been arguing that we as readers should accept it as right, given our knowledge, but I'm not so sure...in the situation, Gandalf can not wield the authority of Valinor, because authority depends on others' belief in it. If his identity is hidden, his authority vanishes with it. Thus his divine right to appoint a king is revoked, in my opinion.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

The Istari didn't have authority either. They were prohibitted by the Valar from persuing it, in case they sought to dominate the inhabitants of Middle-earth.