Gandalf a "steward?"

[narfforc]

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

[Rhod the Red]

"there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission." Well, we don't know if Denethor 'suspected' who the Istari were, only Elrond, Cirdian and I think Galadriel knew who they were.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

I'm not so sure that this follows. Not in a fantasy world where Orcs, Ents, Dwarves and the like exist. The Istari deliberately disguised themselves as old men and claimed to be Wizards. That would be sufficient explanation for most. Dragons and Ents lived for thousands of years, but no one surely suspected them of being emissaries of the Valar.

Then again, Denethor was a canny sort and may well have put two and two together. It's possible, but its speculative. I was after some textual or authorial indication.

Originally Posted by narfforc

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

I also think Denethor wasn't stupid but it was 250 years ago when Saruman had been given the keys of orthanc and he a lot of other problems then thinking "what are the wizards?"
None knew who they were except the three keepers of the elven-rings.
litle question did Sauron knew who they istari were?

[narfforc]

The Rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world stands, those are my care. As for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I am also a steward. Did you not know?

1. Is Gandalf suprised that Denethor does'nt know?

2. Why ask this question if Gandalf thought Denethor knew?

3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward.

3b. Steward One who manage's anothers property.

3c. Who's property is that then?

The Palantiri showed scenes far away in time and space. A person of strong will could learn to control the palantir and with it see where and whenever he wished.

'Pride and despair!' he cried. Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. Who knows the full extent of what Denethor saw in his palantir, it is not impossible for him to have found out the truth of The Istari.

[Rhod the Red]

"3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward."

In one instance he refered to himself as one. This once, not other times. Other times as wizard. Usually from a third-person perspective though, when talking about 'wizards' and 'The Wise'.

"where and whenever he wished." In the sense that there was no limit? We have no knowledge if there is or isn't a limit. That's conjecture to assert perhaps Denethor somehow saw across the Western seas to Valinor and watched the Istari talk about taking on their role in Middle-earth.

[narfforc]

He need not look that far, however, there again it would not be beyond the power of a palantir to see that far. It is irrelevent when or how many times Gandalf call himself steward, he does so, therefore he clearly sees himself as one, that is the important information he is imparting on you. If he says he is a steward, then he is. The question I asked is why does he ask Denethor if he knew or not, and who's property was he managing

[Boromir88]

After Gandalf died and was sent back by Eru, he was granted more power and authority. For Eru knew now that only Gandalf would be the one to stay true to his task and someone needed to deal with Saruman. Tolkien clearly points this out in Letter 156:

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. [...]He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

The Valar sent the Istari as a plan in order to help the free people's combat Sauron. After the other Istari failed and Gandalf was the only one who would stay true to the task, the Authority (Eru) got involved and made Gandalf more capable of being able to complete the task.

So, what kind of "authority" did the Istari have, if any? What exactly was their task? Who perhaps knew about them? I think these quotes will answer it to the best that we can:

When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Greatm the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to see to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.~Appendix B: The Third Age

So, the people of Middle-earth see these old men, and they see them as "messengers" sent to contest Sauron. I think this quote also backs up the authority that the Istari could command. Now they can't dominate over anyone, and they can't force anything. But, it was their mission to unite those who would combat Sauron, which implies they would have an authoritative sort of role. They themselves would not be able to lead directly against Sauron, or challenge him. However, if they wanted to complete their task they would have to take up an authoritative role, in order to unite the Free Peoples against Sauron.

Let's look at Theoden who accepts Gandalf as his "new counselor" after Grima, I would say a "counselor" is a title that holds certain authorities:

"Nonetheless I miss now both my counsellors, the old and the new. But in this need we have no better choice than to go on, as Gandalf said, to Helm's Deep, whether Erkenbrand be there or no..."~Helm's Deep

And this is how Gandalf often acted, as a guide, counselor, advisor. He couldn't dominate and force anyone against their will, as that would go against his "task." But he could instruct and guide, and "Counselors" have authoritative power. Eventhough if they aren't the one's to make the decisions, they can influence and in Theoden's case he takes Gandalf's advice. With Denethor, he doesn't, and Gandalf is forbidden to force Denethor against his will.

For sure, Cirdan certainly knew who Gandalf really was:

For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.
"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle the hearts in a world that grows chill..."~Appendix B: The Third Age

Also, notice Cirdan called Gandalf "master," displaying more authority that the Istari had.

I agree with narfforc, whether Gandalf referred to himself as steward once or thousands of times. He called himself a steward, and even further explained what his job was. And those who knew who the Istari were accepted their authority (as shown with Cirdan). As well as in Theoden's case who takes Gandalf as his counselor (even though if Theoden probably didn't know of Gandalf coming over from the West as messengers).

And with Faramir:

"Gandalf!" said Frodo. "I thought it was he. Gandalf the Grey, dearest of counsellors. Leader of our Company. He was lost in Moria."
"Mithrandir was lost!" said Faramir. "An evil fate seems to have pursued the fellowship. It is hard indeed to believe that one of so great wisdom and of power - for many wonderful things he did among us - could perish and so much lore be taken from the world..."~The Window on the West

We seem to have several people around Middle-earth who have accepted Gandalf. Whether if it was like Cirdan who actually knew who he was and why he was there, or Theoden, Faramir, Aragorn, and many others who accepted his counsel and leadership, but didn't know.

The other istari abandoned their tasks, or turned away. But, in Gandalf's case he was well known in Middle-earth, and known by many names, and known for many deeds. Which, I think shows he commanded a certain authority when he was around as those willing saw him as a friend and took his advice.

I hope this isn't too hard to follow, I jumped around a lot, I think and just jumbled everything.

[davem]

'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. ... So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Clearly Denethor recognises that Gandalf has both power & authority. He probably also acknowledges that he is a 'steward'. The point is they wanted different things. Denethor wanted things to remain as they had always been during his lifetime. Gandalf wanted to reinstate the kingship of Gondor under Aragorn. Denethor refused to acknowledge Aragorn's right to rule: 'I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

What he's saying is that he doesn't care if Aragorn is the Heir of Isildur, - he will not accept Aragorn's rule. So when Gandalf tells him ''To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or in honour,' it is obvious they are at cross purposes. Gandalf's position is that Denethor's duty is to surrender his rule because the true king has returned, Denethor's is that the true king has not returned, as the 'true' king would be the heir of Anarion, not of Isildur. Denethor could not accept Aragorn as king so he could not surrender his office to him because that would (in his mind) be a betrayal of his duty, which is to rule Gondor till the 'true' king returns.