Orcs... were elves?

[Boromir88]

Manwe, interesting post, there's one little thing though:

or deny the trustworthiness of Treebeard’s memory.~Manwe

That itself is not a difficult thing to do. You pointed out Letter 153, and this Letter specifically points out when Treebeard talks about Trolls being a mockery of Ents.

Also, notice in the quote Treebeard says nothing about Orcs originating from Elves. The line is "in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves", which says nothing about Orcs originating from Elves, just they were made in mockery of the Elves.

You point out using Treebeard's "great memory," but I don't see how that holds any grounds. Treebeard can remember events from long ago but as Tolkien specifically points out with him there is a lot he didn't understand. When Treebeard talks about Trolls being mockery of Ents as Orcs are to Elves, this has nothing to do with his memory it's what he thinks about Trolls to Ents and Orcs to Elves. And Tolkien specifically talks about Treebeard to show that what his characters say is not always what he feels or what is "correct."

There is a time problem, but Tolkien clearly felt like the Mannish Origin is the most likely and he altered the chronology to try to best fit this theory. When it comes all down to it, it's just what you want to believe. Tolkien liked the Mannish Origin the best, but that doesn't mean the reader has to.

[Mänwe]

Raynor

Moreover, Tolkien concludes that Men should awake during the Great March - now this doesn't leave _that_ much weight to the stature of the elves as firstborn, does it?

But the Elves were the Firstborn, Men were known as the 'Followers', the term for me makes them the 'siblings' if you will. Yes Tolkien changes the chronology to give the Mannish origins more weight, but it is nonetheless one of the many theories. However I do not see how this could mean that the Elves were anything less than the "Firstborn".

There is also a quote I remember reading that states something about Melkor appearing in fair form to Men. I shall try to find it...

I am inclined also to the 'mixed' origins, more plausible. My post if anything was to give a taste for the various themes that could be meddled with.

Boromir88 I see your point about Treebeard, but I don’t think that I’m using Treebeard’s wods as you think I am. I’m not even considering what he said about the connection of Elves and Orcs and whether they were made/created, counterfiets, etc. I’m solely using his statements on when Orcs appeared, those being:

"made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness" and "It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it".

Treebeard is talking about Orcs, especially in the second, and according ot his knowledge, Orcs first appeared during a Great Darkness. I interpret this Great Darkness to be the time before Melkor was captured; it could of course refer to the time when Melkor had just returned, that’s something I should think about.

But anyway, all that I need from Treebeard is that his memory on when Orcs appeared is stable, and Tolkien says he has a good memory. His understanding of what happened may not be top-notch (and hence he’s wrong), but I’m not convinced that his memory of when the Orcs appeared is not to be trusted. I think that the Letter is not suggesting that Treebeard is completely untrustworthy in the situation, only that his speculations on how, not when, Orcs were made is wrong.

[Letty]

Yes,orcs were once elves.
Saruman explained that to Lurtz in The Fellowship of the ring.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

However I do not see how this could mean that the Elves were anything less than the "Firstborn".

In my opinion, the shortening of the period [between the awakening of elves (1050 Valarian year, cf. the Grey Annals, HoME XI) and the awakening of Men (1500 Valarian Year) from 3980 normal years to a "meager" 702 normal years] is quite significant.

Another possible source for orcs is found in the Grey Annals too:

Originally Posted by Valarian Year 1330

Among these were the Orkor indeed, who after wrought ruin in Beleriand; but they were yet few and wary and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their Lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, deeming them to be Avari, maybe, that had become evil and savage in the wild. In which they guessed all too near, it is said.

Though this guess may just be an approximation of the marring of elves by Melkor, in accordance with your C-1 version (btw, that was some neat essay!).

There is also a quote I remember reading that states something about Melkor appearing in fair form to Men.

I believe you are reffering to the Atrabeth:

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

- Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed, he said. The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.

Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair.

Originally Posted by Gil-galad

he made dragons as a mockery of the eagles.

Hm, the first dragons were wingless; the winged ones appeared only in the war of wrath, when it was too late anyway and the eagles beat them into submission. According to BoLT, the first dragons were "created" by Melkor at the advice of Meglin, to overcome Gondolin.

[Gil-Galad]

alright, i pulled the dragon-eagle one a little far, mind you my head was working on a 5 hour sleep then

[Mänwe]

Raynor;

Originally quoted by Raynor;

"from 3980 normal years to a "meager" 702 normal years] is quite significant."

Then to be pedantic they were still the "Firstborn". No?

As for the Orkor, you are right, they are a possibility. Well spotted indeed, I found a quote I believe supports the fact that they were Elves, that they were Avari.

"It was indeed their obvious detestation of the Orcs, and their willingness to
assist in any war against them, that convinced the Eldar that the Dwarves were no creatures of Morgoth. Nonetheless the Dwarvish name for Orcs, Rukhs, pl. Rakhas, seems to show affinity to the Elvish names, and was possibly ultimately derived from Avarin." - (HoME XI) [My Bold]

As for your quote from the Atrabeth, it does not ring any bells within my mind. I am afraid that the interim length has completely scrambled my brain and I cannot remember even reading the quote I thought I remembered!

In conclusion the dates we assign for the birth of Elves and Men allows I think sufficient time for their corruption and cross-breeding to form orcs. Although the short glimpse we have of the Avari does unsettle things somewhat.

I would also throw into the ring the following question.

What do we mean by the word "orc"?

For there were lesser breeds known as "snaga", "orcs" are reffered to as the more disciplined breeds from Mordor and given the name of "uruk" by Sauron.

"The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. It referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga." - (HoME XI)

Perhaps these more disciplined ones we can associate more with corrupted Elves.

"'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." - (Book II, Chapter 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm)

There is a clear distinction here between "orc" and "uruk". However there is a clear similarity between them, for "some are large and evil" there are but a few differences in appearance yet they are given another name.

Let us not forget also that Saruman also bred these, they did not just originate from Mordor.

So I ask you, can we actually sign a race that has been corrupted to an "orc" or an "uruk" or a "snaga"?

[Animalmother]

Treebeard identified Merry and Pippin as orcs. As were hobbits, most orcs were subterranean creatures small of stature. As were hobbits, they originated in the Misty Mountains region. In THE HOBBIT, the orcs were fond of rough song, as were the hobbits. In the wilds of Misty Mountains where they were not under the discipline of a Saruman or Sauron. their social structure was based on small clans, as was that of the hobbits. Like hobbits, the orcs are omniverous.

The elf-origin of the hobbits theory may simply be due to the obscurity of hobbit folk. A modest folk with much to be modest about, other races didn't notice the hobbits. There was no place for them in their histories.

When the hobbits emerged into history and began to write their own history, they could never imagine fellow hobbit folk as the origin of the horrible orcs.

Elves were creatures of tree and forest. Men are creatures of the plains. Hobbits were partly subterranean creatures. It would be much easier for such a creature to transform into a completely subterranean being than it would be for an elf or a man.

[skip spence]

Animalmother!

I remember that nick, although I had to look up the previous posts to correctly place it (which also gave me a nice reminder of Morth's class).

Anyway, I like the theory, it's very imaginative, and you really should post here more often. Orcs really are a bit hobbit-like, though one wonders why the Dark Lord would pick the smallest and most insignificant of talking peoples as a breeding stock for his invading armies...