The Ring of Saruman?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Just to put Saucy right, sorry you may have already spotted your mistake, Saruman was a Maia, not a Vala.

Doh!

It was only a minor thought anyway. As I said, I don't really buy the Istar/race association thing. The Istari were sent to guide and assist all of the Free Peoples in the struggle against Sauron. So each of them, in carrying out their mission, were required to work with each of the races. Even before Saruman fell to evil, Gandalf travelled widely amng all races and cultures. He is most associated with Hobbits and Humans because that is where we find him in the story - where the "action" is towards the end of the Third Age, if you like. But he also travelled widely among the with Elves, and the Dwarves too, probably. If anything, it was Saruman who had the closest association with Men, being as he was given the keys of a Gondorian stronghold, which later bordered on Rohan. I would say that the Blue Wizards went East because there were people of all races dwelling there to whom their mission extended. Radagast, of course, "went native".

[narfforc]

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by narfforc

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Why would his ring give him that ability? There's nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest that rings are little power-ups that can be made to confer this or that ability of choice to their maker(s)/bearer(s). If you can provide evidence that Saruman 1) had this ability, 2) had this ability after creating his ring, and 3) did not have this ability before creating his ring, then you might have a reason to wonder. Otherwise it's absolutely useless speculation. Along those same lines, one might wonder if Saruman's ring gave him the ability to wield a knife, dance a jig, or check his e-mail.

[davem]

Lalwende started this thread on the Rings & Osanwe, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to Narfforc's point.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why would his ring give him that ability? There's nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest that rings are little power-ups that can be made to confer this or that ability of choice to their maker(s)/bearer(s).

Clearly the Rings are designed to enhance the power of the bearer (Galadriel says as much - that its not by Elven arrows, or singing amindst the trees, that Lorien is protected. They are designed to focus an individual's power & 'actualise their desire' (in CT's words) ie, they are 'magical' objects.

The question is whether they enable the wearer to 'transfer' their own power to another individual. Whether Grima actually recieved some of Saruman's power is a difficult question. Clearly Tolkien believed it was possible for a sufficiently powerful individual to transfer some of that power to creatures or things (Morgoth transfers some of his power into the stuff of Arda in order to control it, as he does into his servants. Sauron transfers some of his power into the One - whether Celebrimbor does the same with the Three is another question. Clearly, though, 'power' can be transferred from one individual to another person or thing. Elrond controls the waters of Bruinen from a distance - how he does that is not clear, because Tolkien never (as far as I am aware) explains the technicalities of magic in M-e. The simplest & most logical explanation of how a person controls an element or person is that he/she transfers some of their own innate 'power' into said element/person. The only other explanation is that there is some form of free-floating power out there which is just up for grabs by those with the knowledge to do it.

However, we do see that use of magic in M-e is not an easy thing (ie, its not simply a matter of saying the right 'magic words' - Gandalf exhausts himself in sealing the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul against the Balrog). Now, to drag in a Primary World example, when the woman in the Gospel touches Jesus' robe & is healed, Jesus responds 'Some virtue has gone out of me'.

Now, if this speculation is correct, & that magic in M-e involves the transfer of the innate 'power' or 'virtue' from the individual it is entirely possible that the Ring enhances this ability (as the 'Torcs' in Julian May's Saga of the Exiles enhance the psychic powers, latent & actual, of individuals). If a Ring gives its wearer the power to dominate the will of others, to control their actions, to control the elements, (as opposed to just scaring people), it must work in some specific way. If the Ring enables its user to dominate the mind & will of another & force that other to do the wielder's will I don't see any reason why that control shouldn't include not so much a 'transference' of actual power - which would be quite dangerous for the dominant party unless they had absolute control over their victim: you don't want to hand out too much power to slaves - but the means to use the subject as a conduit for the wielder's own power.

[narfforc]

Yeh that's what I meant...............he-he.


P.S The reason I asked whether Saruman used his ring to transfer power, was because unlike Melkor and Sauron, Saruman was incarnated into a weaker body and had far greater restrictions on his inate power, all I was speculating was whether Saruman by use of his ring had circumvented those restrictions.

[Findegil]

Well, but with a look around we find the Dúredain who had the abillity to put some of thier power into the images that they made (such as the faithfull stone). And they were surely incarnated beings with considerably less might than an Istar.
That means that Saruman did not need a ring to transfer power to an individual or an object. He only had to learn the technique.
Anyway, since I think, that the process of ringmaking involved the selfsame procedure of transfering some of the makers power into the ring, it seems clear to me, that Saruman need that ability before he made a ring.

Respectfully
Findegil

[narfforc]

I take your point Findegil , and it is a good one, however why did Cirdan feel it necessary to give Narya to aid Gandalf, if the power to kindle mens hearts was already there, why would he need a Ring to support him:

For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.

Maybe Saruman did have the power already, but maybe that power was enhanced by the Ring, maybe Saruman made his Ring to aid him in exactly the same way Cirdan describes the benefits of wielding Narya to Gandalf.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by narfforc

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Do we know if Grima had a Ring? It is possible that Saruman made one for him if he sought to control the man in any way.

Anyway, I think there is plenty of evidence in the text that Saruman was using sanwe, as did Gandalf. Note that Aragorn warns that few could ever be left alone with Saruman due to the power of his mind:

'No," said Aragorn. 'Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

And then there is the very powerful passage where Gandalf and Saruman are locked in some kind of mental battle. Not only do the two wizards strive with one another in thought, but those around them are aware of the battle, even if they cannot discern what is being 'said' (probably as they did not have such honed skills of sanwe):

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in this last effort that none that stood within hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door to words not meant for them: ill-mannered children or stupid servants overhearing the elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering how it would affect their lot. Of loftier mould these two were made: reverend and wise. It was inevitable that they should make alliance. Gandalf would ascend into the tower, to discuss deep things beyond their comprehension in the high chambers of Orthanc. The door would be closed, and they would be left outside, dismissed to await allotted work or punishment. Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: "He will betray us; he will go--we shall be lost."

Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke.

I do think that the Rings of Power may have been created to tap into sanwe, as the evidence for it is certainly strong enough, displayed in their effects on those who bear them. So for Saruman, well versed in Ring Lore, to also attempt to tap into this power is entirely possible.

I also happen to think that Saruman may have created his own Ring in order to help him in his aim to build up an army; this seems to me to be linked to the 'breaking the light' idea - as a prism will break white light into colours, maybe 'breaking the light' with the use of a powerful Ring could have helped Saruman to sub-create his armies.

Note that Saruman seems to have possession of his Ring when he goes to The Shire - nobody takes it from him. And even here he seems to have retained the incredible power of his voice, his ability to command the will of others, despite having no staff or status.