Eldest?

[Farael]

After reading Bombi's quote (or well, Tolkien's quote on Bombi's post) I was wondering... Gandalf says that Fangorn (Treebeard) is the oldest living thing walking under the sun... is it possible that Tom Bombadill walked a different "plane" than the rest? I mean, if he was some sort of Ainur he might very well be beyond the laws of physics, space and time. So perhaps what Gandalf meant that, of the "normal" living things, Fangorn was the oldest... after all, if Gandalf was the Maiar Olorin, wouldn't Olorin be older than anything in Arda?

Farael, thank you for saying eloquently what I tried to at the very end of my post. I agree with what you said. I personally like Tom, esp. for his detachement from the world. Which I beleive is why he is excused when Treebeard is described as eldest. For certainly if the Vala and such powers were to be included then Manwe (I am supposing here I do not know the exact order of creation) would take the cake.

And yet here I am contradicting myself. Tom is not exactly like the Vala. He is certainly connected to Middle-earth (Id Est: the theory of Tom as the physical manifestation of nature). So some measurements of time must apply to him.

As now my mind has settled that Mithrandir meant Treebeard is Eldest of the four primary free creatures. Expect my mind to change soon. Curse indesicion.

[Texadan]

Bombadil also tells the hobbits...

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...When the elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

If that's true, it seems Tom was there when only the Valar lived in the world. Could he have been one of them? His power and joy is in singing and it was through singing the song of Ilúvatar that the Ainur, which included the Valar, made the world.

And, to be a bit facetious, Gandalf did say that Treebeard was the oldest thing that walked the earth. Bombadil never walked. He hopped; he jumped; he danced.

[Farael]

I always thought Bombadil to be not unlike Melian, an Ainur who fell in love with Middle Earth and did not go to Valinor. That would explain more than a couple of things

*Why he did not disapear when he put the ring on (I'm assuming that Sauron didn't disapear either, it might be that if you were strong enough you'd be able to use the ring without disapearing)
*This whole Treebeard-Bombadil being the eldest (Ainur obviously don't count, or else as I said before, Olorin (aka Gandalf) would be older than Treebeard)
*His singing (As mentioned before, Arda was created by the song of the Ainur (and Eru) and it seems that Tom works magic by singing)

I can't recall right now if Gandalf says something about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I think he could be a Maiar... I'd say even a Valar but I think they're all accounted for... and yet, he could be a Valar incarnated in a human (or humanoid) body like Gandalf. I don't know if it says anywhere that all the Valar were in Valinor during the War of the Ring.

In any case, I think that belongs to another thread.... but the point is, I think what Gandalf meant is that Fangorn was the oldest non-Ainur living thing.... as the Ainur are not alive in the same sense the elves, men or hobbits are.

[A_Brandybuck]

The quote, that Treebeard is the Eldest being came from Gandalf not from Tolkien himself. And Gandalf could err or could simplify things in his words. Maybe he just didn't want to explain the Bombadil-Thing or he didn't think about him at this special moment.

[tom bombariffic]

I think we can discount tom being a valar - is he were one, surely he would be able to resist the power of sauron and the ring, and yet we are told by Gandalf (or elrond, I can't remember which) that it would not be safe in his keeping.

Concerning the question of the thread, I'd say tom is definitely eldest. His name means 'oldest and fatherless'. We are given very little detail about him, the bulk of it relating to how old he is. His age is his most prominent trait. Treebeard is old, but he is more characterised, wheras tom is a very sprightly reincarnation of age. Treebeard may be called the oldest living thing that walks the earth, but Tom is such an enigma that he can't really be classified for certain as a living thing: we don't know what he is.

Tom is the eldest. Full stop. That is made very very clear. I think the comment about treebeard being the eldest leaves tom out as a given; of course he is oldest because he existed before anything.

bombariffic

[Farael]

Originally Posted by tom bombariffic

I think we can discount tom being a valar - is he were one, surely he would be able to resist the power of sauron and the ring, and yet we are told by Gandalf (or elrond, I can't remember which) that it would not be safe in his keeping.

He can still be a Valar and the ring may not be safe in his keeping... as I said he'd be an incarnated Ainur (Whether Maiar or Valar or what ever) and so he'd be, just like Gandalf, a slave of the needs of his body.

Yet this thread is not about who Tom Bombadill is, but rather who is the eldest. I think that It's clear that of all the "normal" living things Treebeard is the eldest... while Tom is the eldest of a special kind of beings.