Why did Gandalf have a ring?

[Boromir88]

So Círdan just kept it without ever using it, until Gandalf showed up.~Angry Hill Troll

I wouldn't say Cirdan never used it. Cirdan did his fair share of leading armies in the wars against Morgoth, and then later on helping the Dunedain against Angmar. Now, Cirdan did reach a point where he decided to remain in the Grey Havens and stay there. But, he was very active in the previous wars, so I doubt he never used his ring.

[Raynor]

Boromir, do you imply that Cirdan used the ring in the war against the armies of Melkor? The ring was forged in the second age.

[narfforc]

I do not think that the Ring of Fire was used in the way you may be suggesting Sardy, If you look at what Cirdan says when giving Gandalf the Ring shows a different aspect of it's qualities: .......it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage (UT) or .....rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill (Sil). There is no mention of Narya being able to shoot out fire as many think, and Gandalf's reference to wielding the Flame of Anor has nothing to do with Narya, Anor refers to the Sun, and the Rings were not created to destroy, and I doubt at the insance Gandalf utters those words, it would scare the Balrog if Gandalf meant flames, it was already a spirit of Fire. Some have tried linking the Rings to the elements, therefore the Narya/Sun combination, but that would mean Four Rings, where is the Brown Ring of Dirt, why only Water, Air and Fire?. If we follow the Ring of Fire/Fireball Wielder theory then what do Nenya and Vilya shoot out, nothing is the answer. The Rings work on a more spiritual level.

P.S I am not saying that you are one of the Fireball Wielder theorists Sardy, I just wanted to make a statement that some believe Narya made Gandalf into some kind of Human Torch.......................Flame On!

My spirits burns with passion for the Works of Tolkien, but I am not on fire
My anger burns when I hear Germaine Greers voice, but I am not on fire
I carry a flame for a certain famous Irish female singer, but it does not burn me.

[Boromir88]

Boromir, do you imply that Cirdan used the ring in the war against the armies of Melkor? The ring was forged in the second age.

I'm well aware of when the Rings were made. I was pointing out that Cirdan had not simply stayed in the Havens doing nothing. He was someone, in the past who had led armies and fought in wars, therefor probably would have used Narya. But when Gandalf came he had no desire to leave the Grey Havens, so he gave it to someone that could use it. If you think I was implying anything different than that, sorry but I wasn't. Thanks for being nit-picky though, because I see someone could get that impression.

[Findegil]

The Three Rings were never supposed to be wappens of war. And if they had been, Gandalf would not have been a good choice to give such a wappen to, since the Istari were not supposed to be leader in war action.

About Celebrimbor: He did not make the Rings to be used for anybody else but himself. Thus as long as Sauron had not finished his Ring he wore them all three and may be even more Rings of power as he surely had been the maker of some of the Seven and the Nine. To give the Rings away was a plan he made together in a meeting with Galadriel just before the attack of Sauron on Eriador.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Angry Hill Troll]

Aristotle's elements vs. Tolkien's elements

Tolkien tends to follow the Aristotelian concept of "elements" but with one difference: "fire" and "earth" are combined into one.

Examples are that Aulë is both the Vala responsible for creating the physical structure of the Earth, and also a smith (who uses fire). The Silmaril that Maédhros took ended up "in the fires of the earth". And the "secret Fire burns at the heart of the world".

Did Círdan use Narya?

He could only have used it during the Third Age, before Gandalf showed up. Once Sauron made the One Ring, about 10 years after Celebrimbor made the Three, the elves no longer used the Three for the remainder of the Second Age, because doing so would have revealed their locations to Sauron. Círdan seems to have given Narya to Gandalf as soon as he arrived, around TA 1000 or so. The first millenium of the Third Age was pretty peaceful, so there might not have been that pressing a need to use Narya. The wars with Angmar occured after TA 1200, so at that time, Círdan no longer had the ring.

In the UT version, Círdan explicitly says that Narya is idle, so if in a different version of the story Círdan did use the ring, Tolkien would have to have changed his mind (well, that did happen at other times).

I would say that it's very unlikely that Círdan used Narya, although the wording of the story of Círdan giving it to Galdalf in LOTR doesn't explicitly say so.

[narfforc]

I think the reason Cirdan still had the Ring was because he was at The Grey Havens, if for any reason the Elves had to escape, this would be the last line of resistance, Narya would then come into force as a kindler of courage. When Gandalf turned up Cirdan foresaw that it would be needed elswhere. In HoME 12 we are told this:

After receiving a vision of a white boat, shining in the air above him, sailing west

As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship which after apprenticeship to Cirdan, and ever with his advice and help, Earendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Cirdan received foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.

[Mänwe]

My take on the subject of the Ring in connection to Imperishable flame is in agreement to narfforc's.

1. The Flame Imperishable is with Iluvatar- it is the divine spark through which and by which he creates:

"'He {Melkor} had often gone into the void places seeking the Imperisahble Flame: for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it semed to him taht Iluvatar took no thought of the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." The Silmarillion

2. The Flame Imperishable is also known as the Secret Fire.

3. Gandalf is a servant of the Secret Fire- a servant of Iluvatar serving light.

4. Anor means 'sun' in Sindarin and sun equals light. Gandalf is making a reinforcing statement ' wielder of the flame of Anor' - and saying that he is a servant of Iluvatar and wields the flame of light.

5. The light - which is creative because it comes from Iluvatar combats the dark which is destructive and comes from Morgoth and his succesors. Gandalf represents light and creation in this battle- the flame of Anor- the fire of creation- which contrast with the Balrog- the flame of Udun (Udun was the first stronghold of Morgoth) the fire of destruction.

[Boromir88]

An excellent argument Angry Hill Troll. To an extent I think you are right, obviously I did not consider those factors. For we are told this:

But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring.~The Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

So while Sauron had the Ring, they never used the Rings openly. Now what does "openly" mean. Because we know Galadriel has hidden her ring, for in Lothlorien Sam can not see it on her finger. But does that mean that they still did not use them? I think it's likely that Cirdan had used Narya because of this:

Of the Three Rings the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.~ibid

So the Rings were being used after Sauron's downfall.

Now I may have been wrong to think that Cirdan could have used the Ring to "rekindle people's hearts," because as you say there is a limitted amount of time to do this. Assuming Cirdan gave the Ring as soon as Gandalf arrived (which that's what it seems to me) he would not have had it in the wars against Angmar. But the question is what does "openly" mean while Sauron still had the One Ring in the second age? Does that mean that they kept it on the "down-low" and hid them, yet still were able to use them? Or does that mean they couldn't use them at all? For Cirdan was present in the Last Alliance, could he have used it again? I don't know, it's up to debate now. But, I think it's highly likely that Cirdan did use the One Ring AFTER Sauron lost the One Ring, whether he used it before, looks to be up to debate.

A side note that I find rather interesting, and how ironic this is. Tolkien's death was 1973, 9 Rings of men, 7 dwarven rings, 3 elven rings, the 1 ring...hmmm, how funny some stuff seems to work out. I'm sure a lot of you noticed this before, but I just thought about it recently.