The Ring of Saruman?

[Mänwe]

Rhod I would point out that his study of the Ring lore was earlier than you think and the time at which he made the ring (if indeed he forged it) is a little complex. The One Ring and the three Elven rings of power were forged in the Second Age c.1600, as I am sure you are aware.

”It was a strange chance, that being angered by his insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to Saruman his suspicion that desire to possess them had begun to enter into his policies and his study of the lore of the Rings;” – Unfinished Tales, (iii)Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire [My bold]

The meeting took place 2851 of the Third Age,

“2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.”- Appendix B, The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands)

This is one hundred and eighty two years since his making of Orthanc his own and the attack on Dol Guldur. Although this maybe sufficient time for him to make a ring, who is to say he did not forge it in the intervening 77 years from then to the escape of Gandalf from Orthanc where he saw the ring upon his finger. This would however place him in Orthanc.

There are conflicting dates as to when Saruman occupied it.

“2953 Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it.” - Appendix B, The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands)

This then would shorten the time span to only 65 years in which he could have forged it before Gandalf saw it upon his finger. Or conversely a greater time before then and before his taking up of Orthanc in which he could have forged it.

Thus the date of the council, and the reference to his study of the Ring, he may well have forged it long before such a time, perhaps even before he came to Middle Earth.

davem and narfforc I concur with your points on the matter of their ‘form’.

Findegil, perhaps my suggestion above goes in part to suggest an answer to your query. It is however likely that as has been highlighted already he gained knowledge of forging also from Aule, who he was a Maia too.

Fordim, the Ithryn Luin past into the East, there were many races other than orcs in the east, there were Variags, Dwarves, Avari and men, it could have been any or even all. What do you think?

Bethberry I would counter that point by raising the existence of the Istari and the Valar.Are we to dismiss the Valar as 'Gods' and Eru as 'God', who created Middle Earth in his likeness and to his design. Thus the inhabitants are following his 'protocol'.And the Istari are messengers of the Valar, thus could be seen as priests. They extol the virtue of the Valar and that of 'goodness', this is a religion, its leaders the Valar. Therefore ultimately 'sin' is certainly a word that can be used. Would you agree?

As for the reason of the ring being forged have you considered that it may have been in emulation of Sauron; and out of jealously of Narya given to Gandalf. I am sure we can all quote parts of text that show Saruman’s jealousy for the ring, as well as the fact that Saruman feared Gandalf and knew him to be the stronger. Perhaps this ring was an attempt to prove to himself and to Gandalf that he was the better.

“Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth,…”- Unfinished Tales, (iii)Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire

Comments?

[Raynor]

I too believe there is sin in Middle-Earth; in Myths Transformed, Tolkien states that "Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.

Originally Posted by Manwe

Saruman feared Gandalf and knew him to be the stronger

Hm what do you have in mind? You may be right about Gandalf the white, but at the Council of Elrond, he recounts his meeting with Saruman (emphasis added):

- Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey.

- That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters, said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.

[Bêthberry]

Please pardon a tardy reply to these interesting points about sin.

I suppose it could be argued that the privation of divine order began with Melkor rather than a fall of mankind (or elfkind, dwarfkind, entkind, etc). Eru is thus, like God, defined as good or perfect, and any creature who deviates from His thought or His music is moving away from perfection of form. However, as sin has been defined in Tolkien's Catholicism, it implies some form of conscious awareness that one is acting contrary to right reason or the moral order. See "Sin", Catholic Encyclopedia for the full theological argument.)

Does a close reading of the Ainulindale suggest that Melkor was really fully aware of his actions? Was the Void procsribed to the Ainur? Did Melkor know that, having been given the greatest powers, his desire for full creation--which arises from his closer abilities to Illuvatar--was counter to the original creation of Illuvatar?

What is the nature of natural religion in LotR? Nothing has specifically been revealed to the Hobbits, although there are the tales of the elves (who are regarded suspiciously). Nor is the full Legendarium made explicit in the Ring narrative. Does conscience operate in the hobbits as it is claimed to operate in humans? Do Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin know who Illuvatar/Eru is?

Originally Posted by CE

Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.

Always there is, in the concept of sin, this idea of will, of a wilful act of defiance. Adam and Eve were clearly given the boundaries and they choose to step outside them. But when religion has not be revealed, well, ....

Another way of considering this question, though, is to recall that in popular culture 'sin' is highly connoted with the shamefulness of nakedness and sex. This connotation of sin is rather absent from LotR, as sex is absent also, or at least is relegated to the Appendices.

[Raynor]

Do Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin know who Illuvatar/Eru is?

In letter #297, Tolkien states that:

We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent.

In the light of this, I doubt any hobbit knew of Eru.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Please pardon a tardy reply to these interesting points about sin....

I made some characteristically fantastic observations on the nature of Melkor's rebellion here. Davem and Formendacil are a little irritating in that thread, but alatar and HerenIstarion are excellent.