Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Kuruharan]

To kill.

Why?

One word- ORCS.

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

[Raynor]

I mean, why else do you hunt, and the Elves don't seem big on wanton slaughter of anything.

According to the same source, some petty dwarves attacked the Eldar by stealth at night.

[the phantom]

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

My point about Orcs was that, contrary to your statement, Elves DO wantonly slaughter entire races without regard to "Is this orc different from the others?" and other such moral qualms.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Nobody knew about orcs at that point.

Depends which version of history regarding the origin of the Orks that you suscribe to. Tolkien certainly leaves the door wide open there- and if memory serves, there is one reference to Ork (linguistically) being derived in Elvish from primitive Elven menaces in the days of the Great March and earlier.

And, if one decides that Orks came from Elves (and so were probably distorted by Morgoth prior to his Ages of imprisonment), then there may indeed have been Orks abroad (albeit in small numbers) for the Sindar to know and kill.

And, the Petty-Dwarves being two-legged, upright, and unlovely by Elven standards... who's to say that they wouldn't have been taken for Orks?

[Kuruharan]

According to the same source, some petty dwarves attacked the Eldar by stealth at night.

I can’t find the reference to this particular event. Admittedly, I have lent out a few of my books (a lot of people use my book collection as a public library) and it might be in one of them, but I’m looking at the Sil right now and it says…

For Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became dimished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less (editor’s note: perfectly understandable reaction), and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.

Admittedly, I don’t have all my books to check. And at the moment I frustratingly can’t seem to find the reference that the Dwarves took great offence at the hunting of the Petty-Dwarves. I might be looking in the wrong place or I might not have the right book.

My point about Orcs was that, contrary to your statement, Elves DO wantonly slaughter entire races without regard to "Is this orc different from the others?" and other such moral qualms.

But they wouldn’t have understood the need for that sort of action at that point. Since they didn’t know that the Dwarves were rational, they would have just thought them animals, and part of the natural world. The Elves always respected and revered the natural world. Going around and embarking on wholesale slaughters of what they thought were just animals were not their way. Nor am I under the impression that they would have just killed for sport. They probably thought hunting was fun, but they probably did it for more than just that.

And, if one decides that Orks came from Elves (and so were probably distorted by Morgoth prior to his Ages of imprisonment), then there may indeed have been Orks abroad (albeit in small numbers) for the Sindar to know and kill.

And, the Petty-Dwarves being two-legged, upright, and unlovely by Elven standards... who's to say that they wouldn't have been taken for Orks?

Well, it is sort of a point you have here. However, they certainly don’t appear to have recognized them as such.

There is another point I just realized. How is it that the Elves didn’t notice that the Petty-Dwarves were wearing things? I mean the Petty-Dwarves might have just been wearing skins or something but that is more than most animals will do. Mîm is never referred to as being abnormally dressed or anything and the Petty-Dwarves were self-reliant for practically everything so I doubt that Mîm and his family wearing clothes was a new development.

How is it the Elves didn’t notice this?

They were evidently dimmer than even I originally thought.

[Raynor]

Here is the full quote, Kuruharan:

Originally Posted by Appendix B, elvish names for the dwarves, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI

The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in considera- tion of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mim, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.

[Mister Underhill]

HoME XI has some pretty relevant stuff. To sum up, the Petty-Dwarves were hunted because, as mentioned upthread, they attacked Elves by stealth in the night or when they caught them out alone somewhere. A note does indeed suggest that they were at first thought to be some especially cunning animal, then later believed to be related to Orcs. An important distinction is that the Elves "did not at first recognize them as Incarnates." That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul (as the German soccer team amply demonstrate... haha! I jest! Don't kill me, Esty!).

Later, when the Elves met the real Dwarves, grokked that they were Incarnates, and then realized that the Petty-Dwarves were related to them (and therefore incarnate), they stoppped hunting them and even eventually traded with them.

EDIT: Snap, Raynor beat me by two minutes and a direct quotation. I'll let mine stand anyway to see if my leetle jokie lures Esty to the thread.

[Anguirel]

Perhaps Petty-Dwarf-Hunts were the precursor to the noble art of fox hunting. You don't eat foxes...it's all in the sport...

[Kuruharan]

Yep. Time for me to institute a return policy. I haven't seen my copy of War of the Jewels in ages. (To be honest, I'm not even sure where it is.)

Anyway...

Petty-Dwarf-Hunts were the precursor to the noble art of fox hunting.

A fair point. However, there is usually not much eating on a fox.

The point about the fox actually causes me to wonder something else. I think it might depend on what state Elven society had reached at that particular time. If they were more settled and had a more regular source of food, then they would probably be more likely to just kill the Petty-Dwarves because they felt like it. Again, taking foxes as an example, the whole point in hunting them is to protect the livestock, which is the source of food. Now the Petty-Dwarves were not exactly poaching on the source of food...but if the Elves were of the wandering type...or were bored...

That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul

Which is extremely curious because one of the things mentioned in the Sil as a quality of sentience is "wrought with hands" and the Petty-Dwarves obviously made whatever they were wearing.

I also wonder exactly what the Petty-Dwarves used to attack the Elves. Mim had treasuries of "axes and other gear." Admittedly, these could be from post Elf-poaching days...but still.

[Raynor]

That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul

However, what sort of clothes would they have? Most likely 'raw' ones (furs maybe), differentiating these outcasts little from other animals. I also think that their outcast status impacted on how they behaved; regardless of their clothes, they must have been wild in manners and appearance. And they attacked by night, which also tends to enhance (phisically and morally) the ugly parts of what the elves would perceive about them.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I'll let mine stand anyway to see if my leetle jokie lures Esty to the thread.

*Esty chuckles in the background of a discussion which is interesting to read, jokes included, but on which she has absolutely no expertise to contribute.*

[Macalaure]

We know that Celegorm, Amrod and Amras were great hunters - in Valinor.
I cannot believe they needed to hunt because of the food, and certainly there were no evil creatures in the true west.

So elves did hunt for sport, and even though some of us here (me included) don't approve that, the Valar (esp. Orome, and Yavanna at least tolerated it) seemed to.