LotR2-TTT-Seq16

I'm starting to think it's the Window on the West chapter that PJ had problems with since the whole encounter between Faramir and Frodo was changed from the begining. I think the gollum beating was an unfortunate lapse on PJ part. I think everyone else was against it. I heard they were planning on having a scene in which Frodo turns into a gollum like creature. That would have been interesting to see.

[alatar]

The beating of Gollum is just plain bad. I cannot misinterpret it; it's not like they treated Gollum sternly and he acted as if it were torture. No, these were bullies beating a smaller and weaker creature. Were they knocking him around a bit to 'soften him up' for Faramir's interrogation? Why then did they not beat Sam or Frodo? Did Gollum bite one or more of them, and so did they treat him in kind?

In the books Aragorn states that the creature would never love him, as he was not gentle, but I do not see book Aragorn striking a prone Gollum as it lay weeping.

You feel sorry for the thing, and so his reconversion (or backsliding, or whatever you want to call Slinker becoming Stinker again) is justified. Frodo, rightly or wrongly, gets what he deserves as he befriends Faramir, the captain of the bullies, in the end.

PJ messed that all up.

This is from the Commentary

Peter : The interrogation scene was something that used to be quite violent, and we trimmed it right back for the theatrical release; and the dvd has a little bit more of the violence put back into it,just to sense

Philippa: A little?

Peter : a little, yeah

Philippa: Pft!

Fran: Ooh!

Philippa: God!

Peter: just to sense that Gollum is being , what is the word?

Philippa: Done up!

Peter: softened up. Softened up.

Phillipa:Softened up! Is that how you soften up people,
Pete?

Peter:That

Fran: Oh , it is pretty nasty!I dont think it really represents, The Gondorian Rangers in the best possible light.

PhilippaGollum : Why does it cry, Smeagol?) This is a great scene.

Peter:It even got worse than that,because, remember, they used tread on Gollum fingers at one stage.

Philippa: Oh , that right.

Peter: Theyd crush his fingers, which is why he sometimes has sore fingers later on, towards the end of the film.

Philippa:I quite like the fact that Faramir doesnt use brute force the way that Boromir does, and that is using

Peterinterrupting) There is some really nice animation here.

[Essex]

It's Dagorlad not Dagorland!!!!!!!

I also love the line as Alatar does - "No, his Gardener" - brilliant.

I'll skip the Changed faramir discussions as most of us have here as it's been done to death. I've also talked about the beating up of goullum recently in another thread.

but sufice to say, these people are at War, gollum pretty much looks like an Orc to me, he was fighting against these peole tooth and nail, so I don't really mind that much what they're doing - they are softening him up for interrogation.

why do people think that men descendant of numenor have to be so kind and gentle? as Alatar stated, Aragorn himself had to soften up gollum (but we are not told exactly what he did to gollum, and therefore some of us can gloss over this)

PJ is bringing us into the real world here showing the beating of Gollum. What was that saying about "Love and War" again......?

PS everytime I hear the words the Ring mus go to Gondor I still shudder. but maybe less and less each time I watch it - must remember, it's only a diversion!!!!!! Faramir turns out alright in the end LOL!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

It's Dagorlad not Dagorland!!!!!!!

Dagorland is the Fourth Age Amusement Park outside Mordor.

but sufice to say, these people are at War, gollum pretty much looks like an Orc to me, he was fighting against these peole tooth and nail, so I don't really mind that much what they're doing - they are softening him up for interrogation.

Even in the real world, softening up an interrogatie is debated. That aside, here's the question: Does not PJ make Gollum's betrayal of Frodo more reasonable, and also make Gollum more pitiable? If Gollum fed Frodo (or better, Faramir) to Shelob, could not one think that, well, Frodo permitted the softening up, and so deserved a bite in the neck in return? Methinks that we made the Frodo/Gollum relationship too muddy.

why do people think that men descendant of numenor have to be so kind and gentle? as Alatar stated, Aragorn himself had to soften up gollum (but we are not told exactly what he did to gollum, and therefore some of us can gloss over this)

Quoting without my books in hand, I think that Aragorn states that "he bit me, and I was not gentle" and that Gollum would never love the Ranger. He also states that he tames Gollum using food and water as a rod. I don't read into this much, and I don't see Aragorn pounding on the creature. And, though I may have mentioned this, book Faramir states that he wouldn't even try to trap an orc with a falsehood (or something). My impression, therefore, is that Faramir is more noble (as are his men) in the books than in the movie. Well, you might say, being all nice is fine, but in the real world you have to soften prisoners up a bit. But, with Balrogs amd elves and wizards, we are NOT in the real world, and so I want my heroes to adhere to fantastic rules of engagement. And, as noted here, "Excessively loose rules of engagement can facilitate the escalation of a conflict which, while being tactically effective, negates the political objectives that the use of force was meant to achieve." PJ, attempting to be tactically effective, lost the war as I felt bad for Gollum, who has, at least as far as we know, murdered one person - and a friend at that.

PJ is bringing us into the real world here showing the beating of Gollum. What was that saying about "Love and War" again......?

Again, this is fantasy.

Glad that you're back.

[Essex]

Again, this is fantasy.

but we want realism as far as we can go in these movies. For example, in another thread you bemoan the fact that we can't see stairs leading up to the top of orthanc. If it's fantasy you want then we don't need them

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

but we want realism as far as we can go in these movies. For example, in another thread you bemoan the fact that we can't see stairs leading up to the top of orthanc. If it's fantasy you want then we don't need them

You're not asking me to be consistent now in my whining..?

How about, then, we ask PJ's world to be internally consistent? Good guys do thus, bad guys do the other. Especially by the time we get to RotK, each character is a caricature of itself. Gimli = buffoon. Legolas = deadshot stoic. Aragorn the head chopper. If I wanted complexity, I would have went and seen "Willow."