Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Anguirel]

Perhaps Petty-Dwarf-Hunts were the precursor to the noble art of fox hunting. You don't eat foxes...it's all in the sport...

[Kuruharan]

Yep. Time for me to institute a return policy. I haven't seen my copy of War of the Jewels in ages. (To be honest, I'm not even sure where it is.)

Anyway...

Petty-Dwarf-Hunts were the precursor to the noble art of fox hunting.

A fair point. However, there is usually not much eating on a fox.

The point about the fox actually causes me to wonder something else. I think it might depend on what state Elven society had reached at that particular time. If they were more settled and had a more regular source of food, then they would probably be more likely to just kill the Petty-Dwarves because they felt like it. Again, taking foxes as an example, the whole point in hunting them is to protect the livestock, which is the source of food. Now the Petty-Dwarves were not exactly poaching on the source of food...but if the Elves were of the wandering type...or were bored...

That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul

Which is extremely curious because one of the things mentioned in the Sil as a quality of sentience is "wrought with hands" and the Petty-Dwarves obviously made whatever they were wearing.

I also wonder exactly what the Petty-Dwarves used to attack the Elves. Mim had treasuries of "axes and other gear." Admittedly, these could be from post Elf-poaching days...but still.

[Raynor]

That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul

However, what sort of clothes would they have? Most likely 'raw' ones (furs maybe), differentiating these outcasts little from other animals. I also think that their outcast status impacted on how they behaved; regardless of their clothes, they must have been wild in manners and appearance. And they attacked by night, which also tends to enhance (phisically and morally) the ugly parts of what the elves would perceive about them.

[Kuruharan]

However, what sort of clothes would they have? Most likely 'raw' ones (furs maybe)

That is entirely possible. A lot would depend on when the Petty-Dwarves were driven out and what was the state of Dwarven society at that time. As a mining culture, they probably discovered weaving comparatively late, if it was an internal discovery at all. It might have been something they learned from others. (Which makes me wonder, what did the Avari wear?)

I also think that their outcast status impacted on how they behaved; regardless of their clothes, they must have been wild in manners and appearance.

Mim was certainly willing to bite...

However, if Petty-Dwarf origins from a mining society make it more likely that they would have been wearing animal skins (which would not by definition have to imply crudely fashioned) it also makes it more likely that the Petty-Dwarves would have used recognizable weaponry in their attacks on the Elves.

This Petty-Dwarf hunting business is getting rather difficult to sustain. While Tolkien probably didn't conceive of it lasting very long, I'm beginning to wonder if he would have modified it somehow if he'd thought about it some more. It just seems hard to believe that the Elves wouldn't have realized they were dealing with something more than an animal. I mean, the Elves at the very least were able to inspect the bodies of those they killed and presumably anything the Petty-Dwarf happened to be carrying when they were killed. Unless one assumes that every time a Petty-Dwarf died, his comrades were able to make off with whatever the Dwarf happened to be carrying (which is also difficult to believe)...

[the phantom]

I'm not understanding what part of the whole hunting business you are having trouble with, Kuru.

There are Elves living in the wild. At night these little grotesque creatures attack the Elves and run away. The only sounds they make are throaty growls and grunts. They never made any effort to say "hello" or even make the Elves aware of them. They simply attacked and killed by surprise- something that evil creatures (orcs) or animals would do.

And when the Elves caught one alive it just growled and grunted at them and tried to bite. What reason would they have to believe that the thing was at all akin to them and somehow capable (or deserving) of reasoning and conversing with?

Also remember that the elves of the wild had an extremely limited perspective compared to you and I. We know all about Men, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, and Hobbits- but they didn't. Given the circumstances I don't really think I can find much fault in their actions.

There are always those silly idealists that love to sit where they are with their information and hindsight and judge events such as these. They lack the ability to put themselves into the situation and view it as the participants viewed it, and ignore the current information/hindsight they have access to. Don't be one of those people, Kuru. Strip down your brain and think simply from the perspective of an early Elf.

Here are the basic thoughts of an average Elf regarding Petty Dwarves.

Animals and evil creatures sometimes try to kill us.
When that happens we kill them in order to survive.
These new ugly little creatures attacked us one night. They killed my brother and daughter.
We fought back and killed some of them.
They continued attacking us at night or whenever one of us was alone.
So we started tracking them down and killing them.

Honestly, Kuru, can you find any fault with those thoughts? Can you blame that Elf?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

And they attacked by night.

Originally Posted by the phantom

These new ugly little creatures attacked us one night.

To emphasize the "Night" elements being mentioned hither and thither... there was nothing BUT night at this point in Middle-Earth's history (unless we accept Tolkien's late early-sun theory, which was never fully conceived and really whacks out the Legendarium as we know it). There wasn't even a Moon in the sky.

So there was no chance of encountering these creatures by day...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

unless we accept Tolkien's late early-sun theory

The text Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI is in accordance with the solar system of the Myths Transformed, HoME X; in one of its texts, Quenya, it is stated:

But already before the final separation mori-kwendi may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming the sun and the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.

In his comments, Chris too acknowledges the connection.

So elves did hunt for sport, and even though some of us here (me included) don't approve that, the Valar (esp. Orome, and Yavanna at least tolerated it) seemed to.

Orome is a hunter of "monsters and fell beasts"; he is not doing for the fun of it - he trained "his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor" (Of the valar, Silmarillion).

[Anguirel]

Orome may not, strictly speaking, be a huntsman for fun. Neither is a Master of Fox Hounds; he has countryside to scour. But don't tell me Orome doesn't enjoy hunting. He definitely loves the bright boarspear for its sharpness.

We also see the Elvenking of the Hobbit first in a hunting and feasting context. It is an inarguable fact that many Elves are not wetly "in tune with nature" but pursuers and hunters of prowess. Were they not, it would be a betrayal of folk-tradition. The Great Hunt is at the heart of Faerie.

It is as impossible to reconcile the Valar with the modern anti-hunting movement as it is impossible to reconcile the Hobbitry with the modern anti-smoking movement.

My guess is that the Quendi gloried in chasing the peculiar, cunning bearded wild kelvar for the sheer joy of it.

[Kuruharan]

Phantom – I’m afraid you seem to have entirely missed the point of post #15. How did the Petty-Dwarves attack the Elves? What did they use? Fists? Teeth? I find it hard to believe that a race that “from the first days of their Fathers they had marvelous skill with metals” would not be using metal weapons in their attacks. Metal weapons=Higher intellectual capacity than beasts.

I’m not blaming the Elves for what they did (unless, of course, they made the Petty-Dwarves dinner ). However, I am saying they were rather dumb for not putting two and two together. (I think it may also be possible that Tolkien didn't totally think this bit out).

Formendacil –

So there was no chance of encountering these creatures by day...

True, but the Elves would have had ample opportunity to inspect the bodies of those they killed and whatever their victims happened to be carrying.

Macalaure –

I cannot believe they needed to hunt because of the food

They may not have needed to hunt for food, but you can bet that they spent at least some time hunting things they intended to eat. And Valinor was heaven on earth. Middle-earth wasn’t.