LotR2-TTT-Seq19

[Macalaure]

As I already said, if PJ really wanted to have elves at Helm's Deep, I would have preferred Rivendell ones. Instead of Haldir we would have gotten Elrond's sons (or at least one of them) and the problem of "where have the elves gone" that occurs after the battle is none no more, since we can make a Grey Company out of them. Of course we may ask: How could they have gotten past Isengard? But, come on, this wouldn't have been the worst logical shortcoming of the trilogy.

The scene on the wall before the battle is maybe the only scene of TTT where I like PJ's Gimli and I really like Aragorn adressing elves and men as Eruhíni (sadly not translated in the subtitle).

Originally Posted by alatar

My point, which I will make once, is that with the number of elvish archers present, there would be a lot of Uruk casualties. If 200 elves could rack up five kills each, 1/10 of the attacking force is dead in the first minute. Are these the worst archers that Elrond and Galadriel could find, or is Legolas just so much better? Or are there only a few elves here? Regardless, it seems to make no sense. But…

But you see quite a lot of them falling in their first attack. Whether these are about 10% cannot be told, of course. This or that way, 9/10 of this Uruk army should be able to cause some havoc of its own.
I'm far from being an expert at medieval warfare, but do the archers in the back make a lot of sense? They have no shelter from the orcish crossbows.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

As I already said, if PJ really wanted to have elves at Helm's Deep, I would have preferred Rivendell ones. Instead of Haldir we would have gotten Elrond's sons (or at least one of them) and the problem of "where have the elves gone" that occurs after the battle is none no more, since we can make a Grey Company out of them. Of course we may ask: How could they have gotten past Isengard? But, come on, this wouldn't have been the worst logical shortcoming of the trilogy.

Someone had to 'show up' to save the day, and I guess PJ wanted to show that there was still some tie to the past, where Elves and Men fought Sauron together, and so we get Elves. They're Galadhrim because, well, did we meet any Elf other than Elrond and Arwen in Rivendell? PJ won't create another 'main character' (i.e. Erkenbrand), and so had to use what he had on hand, like Haldir.

The scene on the wall before the battle is maybe the only scene of TTT where I like PJ's Gimli and I really like Aragorn adressing elves and men as Eruhíni (sadly not translated in the subtitle).

Agreed, except that I cringe when Aragorn states the obvious.

But you see quite a lot of them falling in their first attack. Whether these are about 10% cannot be told, of course. This or that way, 9/10 of this Uruk army should be able to cause some havoc of its own.

Whether it's 100 or 1000, my point is that if there are 200 elves, they either are terrible at fighting or something just doesn't make sense. My guess is that there are 1000 elves here, with which Aragorn could have made the Uruks think twice about taking Helm's Deep, if used effectively. Think about how Legolas fights, and even 'halve' that ability. It's such a great battle scene in a visceral way and I hate to continually be pulled out of the movie by thinking about how ineffectual the elves are.

I'm far from being an expert at medieval warfare, but do the archers in the back make a lot of sense? They have no shelter from the orcish crossbows.

Yes (not that I'm an expert either). They can shoot over the wall and defenders safely and pour arrows into the attackers. It's not until the wall is breached (which we will soon see) that they will be in any danger - and that mostly from their leader.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by alatar

Someone had to 'show up' to save the day, and I guess PJ wanted to show that there was still some tie to the past, where Elves and Men fought Sauron together, and so we get Elves. They're Galadhrim because, well, did we meet any Elf other than Elrond and Arwen in Rivendell? PJ won't create another 'main character' (i.e. Erkenbrand), and so had to use what he had on hand, like Haldir.

Canonicity aside, it is also a very good feeling that elves and men fight alongside each other in the Third Age. At least that's what I felt.
Did Haldir have to be a 'main character'? If we didn't need him at Helm's Deep, there's no reason to even tell his name in Lórien. And mixing Elladan and/or Elrohir into some of the Rivendell scenes wouldn't have been such a big thing.
Ah, but I can't change what has been already done...

Whether it's 100 or 1000, my point is that if there are 200 elves, they either are terrible at fighting or something just doesn't make sense. My guess is that there are 1000 elves here, with which Aragorn could have made the Uruks think twice about taking Helm's Deep, if used effectively. Think about how Legolas fights, and even 'halve' that ability. It's such a great battle scene in a visceral way and I hate to continually be pulled out of the movie by thinking about how ineffectual the elves are.

Well, they are terrible at fighting. I forgot to write that in the last post, but this quite annoys me, too. They should be better fighters even as the common rohirric soldiers, not to mention children and old men, but they do nothing but shoot some arrows and then die. I think it's due to the meaning of this particular battle. It is supposed to be the heroic hour of the Rohirrim and their king Arag..*cough* Théoden, and not of the elves. So all they can do in the end is die an honorable death - as Haldir exemplary does.
And comparing anybody's fighting to Legolas' fighting is just not fair - he has the quiver of plenty...

Yes (not that I'm an expert either). They can shoot over the wall and defenders safely and pour arrows into the attackers. It's not until the wall is breached (which we will soon see) that they will be in any danger - and that mostly from their leader.

And neither is Peter Jackson, I would say.
As they can shoot over the wall into the attackers, so can the attackers in turn since the wall doesn't protect them in their position. But this is not really important, I guess.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Did Haldir have to be a 'main character'? If we didn't need him at Helm's Deep, there's no reason to even tell his name in Lórien. And mixing Elladan and/or Elrohir into some of the Rivendell scenes wouldn't have been such a big thing.

But they would have added/slowed the pace of the Rivendell scenes where the focus was to be otherwise. Besides FotR, Elrond, Arwen and Bilbo, just who else is introduced in Rivendell? PJ might even have skipped Bilbo but we needed to get Sting and the mithril coat, plus we needed that constant reminder that the Ring was Evil. If you don't have time for Glorfindel at the Fords, then surely you don't have time for E&E. Plus, instead of scouting the area/traveling with the two sons, Aragorn was hanging out with Arwen.


[quote]Well, they are terrible at fighting. I forgot to write that in the last post, but this quite annoys me, too. They should be better fighters even as the common rohirric soldiers, not to mention children and old men, but they do nothing but shoot some arrows and then die. I think it's due to the meaning of this particular battle. It is supposed to be the heroic hour of the Rohirrim and their king Arag..*cough* Théoden, and not of the elves. So all they can do in the end is die an honorable death - as Haldir exemplary does.[quote]
It's just annoying. If you're going to rewrite history and have Elves at Helm's Deep, at least make them look respectable.

And comparing anybody's fighting to Legolas' fighting is just not fair - he has the quiver of plenty...

Naw...he just is quick about picking up all of the arrows that his compatriots fail to shoot.

And neither is Peter Jackson, I would say.

In one of the commentaries PJ is made out to be some type of general, wanting all of the battles to appear realistic (don't quote me, it's in there somewhere and I'm stating my opinion of what is said), but that may have been misguided praise.

As they can shoot over the wall into the attackers, so can the attackers in turn since the wall doesn't protect them in their position. But this is not really important, I guess.

Nope. The elves are in a better position (at least until the next sequence). They are on higher ground, can purportedly shoot further and have a screening wall between them and the Uruks. With Aragorn acting as their spotter (or not), they need only to shoot in the general direction of the large group of Saruman's army to have an effect. The Uruks would be experiencing a rain of arrows and would only be able to shoot back, blindly, from where they thought that the arrows were coming. There would be no guarantee that an Elf would be hit, unlike when the elves returned fire. Plus, the crossbows assumedly do not have the range, or the orcs would have sacrificed their own people and shot everything off of the wall top. Any orc on the wall that was silly enough to attempt a crossbow shot at these archers would be cut down (by Gimli) whilst reloading.

But then again, this is not only fantasy, but PJ's fantasy world, and so sense is left at the theatre door.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by alatar

But they would have added/slowed the pace of the Rivendell scenes where the focus was to be otherwise. Besides FotR, Elrond, Arwen and Bilbo, just who else is introduced in Rivendell? PJ might even have skipped Bilbo but we needed to get Sting and the mithril coat, plus we needed that constant reminder that the Ring was Evil. If you don't have time for Glorfindel at the Fords, then surely you don't have time for E&E. Plus, instead of scouting the area/traveling with the two sons, Aragorn was hanging out with Arwen.

I don't have a thorough introduction in mind. Elrond's sons are rarely mentioned in the Rivendell chapters anyway. Maybe half a minute screen time at most, just so you remember them when they turn up again in the Elrond-Galadriel-Telepathy-Scene and at the Deep. Let Aragorn remain with Arwen as it is. Maybe it would have slowed the Rivendell scenes, but to the great benefit of the Helm's Deep scene and the Paths of the Dead scene. (And the latter could have used that a lot, but we're still quite a time away from this)
I also wouldn't have minded if Elladan/Elrohir took Glorfindels part in rescuing Frodo instead of Arwen.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't have a thorough introduction in mind. Elrond's sons are rarely mentioned in the Rivendell chapters anyway. Maybe half a minute screen time at most, just so you remember them when they turn up again in the Elrond-Galadriel-Telepathy-Scene and at the Deep. Let Aragorn remain with Arwen as it is. Maybe it would have slowed the Rivendell scenes, but to the great benefit of the Helm's Deep scene and the Paths of the Dead scene. (And the latter could have used that a lot, but we're still quite a time away from this)
I also wouldn't have minded if Elladan/Elrohir took Glorfindels part in rescuing Frodo instead of Arwen.

I think that PJ et al struggled with having as many characters included as possible yet presenting something that was coherent to a non-book reading audience. With nine people in the Fellowship, Arwen, Bilbo, Elrond, Galadriel, etc, there wasn't much room in the FotR to set up many more characters. My sister was thoroughly confused in TTT with Theoden and kin, not to mention Faramir. "Who are all of these people?" And to include a sub-main character in the Extended Editions? That too could have been hard to accomplish effectively.

My slant is that each character was to be boiled down to a simple idea or caricature so that the audience could easily recognize each's role in the movie.

Plus you have to pay these people...