Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Kuruharan]

Hence it may be concluded that living being with a tool attacking one does not necessarily need to be anything but 'twisted' kelvar.

Yes, but this reasoning is more complicated than just thinking, “Hey, these creatures might be sentient” (partially because it requires a realization of sentience before you can move to this next step).

Besides, when lone is attacked by many, even if it was an accident, from the lone's point of view it would be 'malice aforethought'

I think too much is made of this “lone” business. There are a couple of points here. A) I don’t think the Petty-Dwarves would have attacked Elves in the first place unless they were in a position of great superiority (I think we can probably all agree on that) B) On the other hand, if the Elf was really alone or even if there were a few of them, there would not likely be any survivors to say who did it. There would not be any reason to think it was Petty-Dwarves or anybody else (unless they found footprints, which would look suspiciously like smaller versions of their own feet…hmmm…) Having survivors implies a larger group of Elves, which requires a larger group of Petty-Dwarves, which requires greater organization on the part of the Petty-Dwarves. This should have been telling to the Elves.

petty-dwarf hunting could not have possibly occurred more than couple of times at all.

That was pretty much my impression.

And about chimps - it seems they are capable of building tools, after all

Didn’t I say that?

[Raynor]

I don’t think the Petty-Dwarves would have attacked Elves in the first place unless they were in a position of great superiority (I think we can probably all agree on that). On the other hand, if the Elf was really alone or even if there were a few of them, there would not likely be any survivors to say who did it

The petty dwarves seem pretty savage so as to act based on basic fight/flight instincts - esspecially since they didn't know the might of the first elves. I would say they clearly underestimated the elves' might and I think there were very few (if any!) casualties among the eldar. (Moreover, the elves have been dealing with Melkor's minions ever since they were born.)

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, but this reasoning is more complicated than just thinking, “Hey, these creatures might be sentient

Not much complicated, if we take into account that just earlier elves have been absolutely sure they are the only incarnates.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Having survivors implies a larger group of Elves

Not necessarily. As the issue of elves eating petty-dwarves must have been merely a joke on your part, I don’t expect you believe petty-dwarves were eating slain elves as well? Hypothetical ‘lone elf’ might have been sorely wounded, but knowing how hardy elves are, one might have lived to tell the tale.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Didn’t I say that?

Nope. Your words, exact:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

notice I said "build" and not "use" to prevent somebody tossing the chimpanzees at me

I’ve tossed at you tool-building chimp, not tool-using one

But, as a whole, one way or another we are bound to speculate – no data to build upon. Arguments I’ve presented you with were no intended to rule out even the possibility of things as you reason them, I’ve just tried to illustrate that quite different development of events might have taken place as well. Plausibility is in the eye of the beholder here. I tend to hold that killing of petty-dwarves was just regrettable accident. Arguments to my rescue seem plausible to me. I’m content. Hence:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This should have been telling to the Elves

Seems tiny bit pointless. We do not even know what was the ‘telling’ which finally stopped the hunting. It might have been ‘greater organization’ as you describe it, it might have been fear to offend 'real' dwarves more, it might have been lone elf survivor realizing (after not being eaten) that these must have been incarnates, if they haven’t eaten him raw, and just dined nearby on soup made of roots, and haven’t made a soup out of him either. (Or even maybe ‘lone elf’ saw petty-dwarves pickling ‘lone elf #2’ in the pot and than realization dawned on him )

If you imply that elves should be blamed for the fact itself – well, probably they should. On the other hand, they’ve stopped of their own accord, and [as I believe] quite soon – feat quite commendable.

That was pretty much my impression

m-m-m... than what are we arguing about?

[Kuruharan]

The petty dwarves seem pretty savage so as to act based on basic fight/flight instincts

They might have, but given the stated stealthy nature of the Petty-Dwarves, I think they probably would have observed for awhile before actually doing anything. I think they would have had some idea of what they were dealing with or at least would have only attacked when they greatly outnumbered the Elves.

Moreover, the elves have been dealing with Melkor's minions ever since they were born

Not to the extent that they were particularly great fighters or well equipped for war at this point. You will no doubt recall where Thingol got his first major arms shipments from *cough* *cough*...

As the issue of elves eating petty-dwarves must have been merely a joke on your part, I don’t expect you believe petty-dwarves were eating slain elves as well? Hypothetical ‘lone elf’ might have been sorely wounded, but knowing how hardy elves are, one might have lived to tell the tale.

The Elves eating the Petty-Dwarves was a serious point on my part. You have to take into account that the Elves knew no reason not to eat them. The Elves just thought (even as much as it defies reason) that the Petty-Dwarves were animals. However, you do have a good point about the toughness of Elves.

We do not even know what was the ‘telling’ which finally stopped the hunting.

-and-

On the other hand, they’ve stopped of their own accord, and [as I believe] quite soon – feat quite commendable.

Ummm...yes we do. The "telling" was done by the Dwarves of Nogord and Belegost who explained to the Elves (probably using small words and talking very slowly) what the Petty-Dwarves were. The Elves did not stop hunting the Petty-Dwarves on their own.

than what are we arguing about?

I believe it is because you are trying to defend the Elves from my astonishingly just and accurate charge that the Elves were ignorant dullards.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I believe it is because you are trying to defend the Elves from my astonishingly just and accurate charge that the Elves were ignorant dullards.

Well, I'm doing that pretty well, I reckon

Even if 'dwarvish telling' was the reason of stoppage, there is no evidence that reasoning of the elves was 'ah, these are their cousins! we won't hunt them not to offend bigger cousins, than' and not 'ah, these are their cousins! they are incarnates! one should not kill incarnates, let us stop here and now'.

If the latter option be true, than it is 'of their own accord' all right.

[Kuruharan]

They may get moral credit for it, but they don't get any brain credit because they didn't figure it out for themselves.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

They may get moral credit for it, but they don't get any brain credit because they didn't figure it out for themselves.

You deliberately omit 'if' part of the supposition, that is, if elves stopped because of dwarves telling them, and not because they just 'saw' the similarities between the dwarves proper and petty dwarves for themselves and than stopped.

[Kuruharan]

I’m afraid I’m going to have to suggest you go back and re-read the section helpfully provided by Raynor in post #10. Specifically the bit about…

But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone.

There is no “if.” The Elves did not know until the Dwarves told them. I don’t see how it could possibly be any clearer.