Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

It's too long a letter to reproduce in full. Celuien's quote from it give as good a summary of Tolkien's point of view as any. With one addition: Men are looking for their "star". Women are more practical. So it's all about interaction between the sexes. Quite interesting reading! Some of his insights would be considered decidedly man-centered these days.

[Bêthberry]

Bah humbug, lmp.

Courtly love is wrong because it is not wholly theocentric and diverts

Originally Posted by Tolkien

"the young man's eyes off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. . . . It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose.. . . Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so),...the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. . . . Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing), she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. . . . You may meet in life (as in literature) women who are flighty, or even plain wanton--I don't refer to mere flirtatiousness, the sparring practice for the real combat, but to women who are too silly to take even love seriously, or are actually so depraved as to enjoy 'conquests' or even enjoy the giving of pain--but these are abnormalities. . . . Unless perverted by bad contemporary fashions they do not as rule talk 'bawdy'; not because they rae purer than men (they are not) but because they don't find it funny. I have known those who pretended to, but it is a pretence. It may be intriguing, interesting, absorbingh (even a great deal to absorbing) to them: but it is just p lumb natural, a serious, obvious interest; where is the joke? ... But they are instinctively, when uncorrupt, monogamous... Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world) or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one), both partners might have foundmore suitable mates.. . . "

Well, I suppose that is covered by lmp's "decidedly man-centric" comment, but isn't it much more interesting to see just how Tolkien thinks a young woman ought to behave? Of course, this is just a letter, and so I suppose it is less canonical than LotR, which doesn't really say anything about Arwen's desires for Aragorn, or Galadariel's for Gimli's or Celeborn's, or Rosie's for Sam...

It is such a tangled web, trying to figure out what is a proper attitude to display in young women characters in RPGs. Actually, Jenny, there are several threads here on the Downs which do discuss the possibility of those very trysts you are alluding to. It is possible that elves 'get away with it'... in the fine print of Luthien and Beren, to which of course Tolkien alluded in his gravestone, a choice he made both for himself and Edith. My letter omits his comments on his and her relationship.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You've got to be kidding me.

I'm writing my women and their opinions of men the way I want them. Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

[Firefoot]

What Fea said.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Fea

Tolkien can go suck a lemon

Fea, you're too funny.

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post.

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along....

... when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?)

There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along....

Yep. Moving along.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

Okay. That should be plenty of time for the post.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction.

Understood.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Celuien, when approaching Farahil, just remember that he doesn't share his thoughts. Generally at all.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fea

Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

Originally Posted by Celuien

Fea, you're too funny.

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post.

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns.

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh?

*moving along*

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns.

Not for this young 'un.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh?

Comparisons welcome. I did worry, however, that we'd slipped into anakronism after reading the comments on courtly love and seeing lmp's history lesson.

Actually, I find this an interesting discussion, possibly needing expansion on the Books forum or HI-ing of related topics.

Moving right along...

[Folwren]

What's happening? I'm at a suddenly total loss of what is going on here.

My real question is this - how soon do you want to move time ahead, Elempi? If you guys are still planning on spending some time this night, I'd like to have Thornden and Lys talk some.

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

I've done my "short" post...

Please Fea: tell me if Saeryn is handled badly - I'll correct it instantly.

We are conspirating a final post for this day with Celuien where the future working pair will meet before going to sleep. It will be in quite soon - I suppose.

Folwren: I think we are about to close the day to go ... to the next day, and jump only then (or then I'm wrong).

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

We are conspirating a final post for this day with Celuien where the future working pair will meet before going to sleep. It will be in quite soon - I suppose.

Post in.

Jenny: Feel free to borrow the squirrel for farewells if you're writing Lin's departure. I might not be around as much as usual this weekend with last minute projects around the house that need completion before 4th of July parties...

[littlemanpoet]

Two things:

1. It's important that Eodwine speak with Linduial before she leaves the Mead Hall.

2. Pio, Nogrod's post # 395 & Celuien's # 396 belong in between posts # 386 & 387. Can you take care of that, please?

[Celuien]

Do the posts have to go there, lmp? That gives Garstan the kids before he talks to Farahil. And he was looking for the children in 392...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Double posting... bad me...

The song that Degas plays and sings in my last post is this tune.
It ends a bit before his song does, sadly... I couldn't help but add two more stanzas... but it's the closest melody I could find to the one I had in mind.