Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[Roa_Aoife]

Thanks LMP, though I'd like to hear from the wolves I had around the longest- Eomer and Morm.

I admit, part of the sending just names may have been a mistake, but it was a mistake on my part, not the rules. I assumed that when the wolves recieved the list of candidates, they wouldn't just think "Why so and so?" and vote for their original choice anyways. I assumed they would think, "Why so and so?" and then go look at that player to see why another wolf would want them dead, then give it some consideration before voting. One wolf may have been looking in a direction that another had completely missed, and so I thought the list of names would be enough to draw their attention that way, if not for the kill, then during the day. A "kill list," much like Gurthang's "list of doom", also provided a list of people safe to go after during the day.

I guess I thought a name would be enough. This may be a suggestion for a future EW, but it would really be up to them. I know most of the time I would have picked one person to kill already, and left the second kill up to whoever got their votes in fastest. Other times I would send specific names, and couldn't give a good reason without risk of hinting my identity. I believe I said specifically at one point, "Kill phantom," and left no room for questions. (Of course that was before I learned of that dratted hunter role...*grumble* ) But that's my style. Another EW may do it differently. And they should be free to do so.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Thanks LMP, though I'd like to hear from the wolves I had around the longest- Eomer and Morm.

I would like to add a voice of a little more short-lived wolf...

First of all, being a wolf in the wizard game was not at all fun... or well, it was, but not so much as it is in a normal game (as I experienced it in my next game - there was a difference in quality, not only in quantity there).

But why is that?

Some points...

- I'm of the opinion that we were strictly informed not to make any cases or arguments about our wannabe-kills but just to give the name of our choice to the sub-mod. That I think was made pretty clear from the beginning (and I protested against it before knowing myself to be a wolf). The arguments would have been futile anyhow, because it was said that no arguments would be posted to other wolves to ponder about. So a question of a simple majority rule, with the EW having the possibility of overriding it at her wish. (If Morm actually produced wealthy arguments, I think he broke the initial rule - or at least the rule I frustrated myself on)

- Without knowing your "partners" it makes you feel quite cornered from the beginning (I realised it after I woke up to see the end of Day1). One might say it's just more suspense and excitement, but actually it's also quite frustrating as you can't help your situation or really "play" a game. It becomes just a run for your life and hide your head -game with no point whatsoever (you don't decide the kills, you don't argue them, you can't make any tactical decisions etc.) with the added ingredient of "don't let down your EW" (I really started to believe in Roa being the EW on Day2 in the middle of her relentless attack on me, but of course I couldn't jump with a full counterattack on her, as that could have weakened our overall chances as the evil side - in a normal game I really would have enjoyed a fight there...).

- There is very little point in being a wolf if you don't have any means to make a difference. I see the fun in being an ordo (and I love it) when you try to find who to trust and who not - when you get to see how to best play the game for a mutual victory (even if it demands sacrificing yourself), and being a wolf is just so much fun: how to co-operate, how to deceive, how to see things right from your team... But in DW it was being hunted by everyone without any reason or goal to go for or risk yourself. Not good. More frustrating. A handless basketball-player I felt myself to be - and that's not far from the truth.

So the wolves should have more liberties. What should they be? I don't know, but at least they should have the feeling of actually playing a sensible game themselves where they can make their own mark in, or just feel they are playing in the first instance. The EW should have the final right of decision, that's in the spirit of the game, but at least allowing the wolves to argue for their own cases would be an improvement (even though I think the EW would still not owe an explanation about her decisions in the case of an overrule). I also think that Lommy's ideas should be considered if any argumentation is ruled off.

But how to balance the basic inbalance between the sides (here I side with Gurthang - as I did before the game), when the EW has a 30 yard head start with the GW in the 100 yard hurdles - and demanding more stakes to the individual wolves at the same time? Maybe the EW should have to start by one at night -basis too (maybe two in the beginning to not allow the game to end after Day1), or something - the GW being allowed two gifteds on Night1 - or additional gifteds along the way over the three?

Well, happily I'm not going to be the next DW-mod. But surely will participate if time allows.

Great concept lmp, but needs some polishing before it actually works in a balanced fashion that would offer the same possibility of gaming satisfaction to all different roles.

[littlemanpoet]

Noggie, you make an impressive case for there to be more Night time freedom for the werewolves. So I'll think out loud for a bit. That means that the following is not conclusive possibility, but bouncing off ideas.

1. The werewolves and EW choose kills, and explain them in as much depth as they feel appropriate (EW acts like a werewolf).
2. The sub-mod (poor bloke/blokette) SUMMARIZES the explanations to the EW and other werewolves.
3. The werewolves and EW repeat step 1.
4. The sub-mod repeats step 2.
5. The werewolves and EW repeat step 1 again.
6,7,8.... This continues until consensus is reached, or until 2 hours before the end of the Night phase. If there is consensus, the werewolves' choices are communicated to the Moderator. If there is no consensus, the EW makes a decision.

What do you think?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

- I'm of the opinion that we were strictly informed not to make any cases or arguments about our wannabe-kills but just to give the name of our choice to the sub-mod. That I think was made pretty clear from the beginning (and I protested against it before knowing myself to be a wolf). The arguments would have been futile anyhow, because it was said that no arguments would be posted to other wolves to ponder about. So a question of a simple majority rule, with the EW having the possibility of overriding it at her wish. (If Morm actually produced wealthy arguments, I think he broke the initial rule - or at least the rule I frustrated myself on)

I was never aware if this. Can you point out what it was that made you think this way? I thought that the wolves would PM Boromir in whatever fashion they deemed reasonable, and he just quoted what they said in a PM to me. I see no reason why it couldn't continue like that. It may be a lot of reading for everyone, but that's what would be happening if there was no sub mod and everyone was just talking to each other. The only risk would be if the wolves were able to figure each other out by type, which is why the reasons should be sent to the EW first, and then the EW should decide what goes where. The sub-mod would send the messages of the EW not as a quote but as a paraphrase.

It seems that your biggest problem with the game was how isolated you were as a wolf. If we let the wolves reason at will with the EW via the sub-mod, and then let the EW decide how to send the choices to the wolves, it should solve a lot of that. And maybe the wolves could send multiple names andreasons, so the EW can compile a "kill list" of people safe to attack during the day (which would give the wolves more direction and a strategy so as not to be so paranoid about who to attack.) However, the extra names should not be required, and should come at the request of the EW. Remember, the EW is not a "teammate" on the Evil side- s/he is team leader, and should be treated as such.

So, Wolves message sub-mod with whatever kind of reasoning they want
Sub-mod Fwd's all messages to the EW with the wolf's name as the subject
The EW looks at the reasons and decides either who to kill, or which group it would be okay to kill. At this point the EW could add another name to the list if s/he so desired.
The EW sends this list with the reasons to the sub-mod, who then paraphrases everything and sends it to the wolves.
The wolves then look at the reasons, and then offer arguments or consensus, which is forwarded to the EW via the sub-mod.
This continues until a consensus is reached, or the EW makes a decision.

The EW should have a "last resort kill" in case a choice is not made by the deadline (which is, infact, 2 hrs before the deadline). That way there will be a kill regardless.

This may be a lot of work for the EW and the sub mod, but that comes with the territory. People shouldn't volunteer for these positions if they don't have the time to do the work.

[JennyHallu]

Sure, we're welcome to put as much reasoning as we please, but we can't see any of it, and nothing we say has any effect. That's the issue, Roa. Plus, I didn't like that we had no way of knowing who the kill would be or why that person was killed...we didn't know who we killed any sooner than the village did, and thus couldn't plan ahead.

Frankly, I don't think the EW should have the power he or she does over the choices of the wolves. One danger of creating minions is that the minions may take some initiative that goes beyond or outside your own plans. The GW cannot dictate the seer's dream or the hunter's choice, and werewolves are much less likely, by nature, to be easily controlled. The werewolves should be more autonomous from the EW. He/She should be able to make suggestions, but not an out and out veto. What point is there to being a wolf, really?

[Roa_Aoife]

Sure, we're welcome to put as much reasoning as we please, but we can't see any of it, and nothing we say has any effect. That's the issue, Roa.

You may have missed it, but I did say the EW sends back the reasoning to the other wolves for them to see and think over. So, the others do see it, and it does have an effect.

Plus, I didn't like that we had no way of knowing who the kill would be or why that person was killed...we didn't know who we killed any sooner than the village did, and thus couldn't plan ahead.

Half the time it was a surprise for me too. This was because I would have to leave before the dealine, and so I told Boromir that whoever had the most votes by deadline would get killed. A few days I was honestly surprised by the kill of the night.

Frankly, I don't think the EW should have the power he or she does over the choices of the wolves. One danger of creating minions is that the minions may take some initiative that goes beyond or outside your own plans.

But it's wizards werewolf. The point of the game is that we have two wizards running things from behind the scenes. Sure that's a danger with monions, unless you instill order by force. (Dictator like and all.) The real danger of the wolves if that if they get scryed they imediately change sides. This is not so with the gifted. It doesn't behoove the EW to turn a gifted except to get rid of them, becuase They stay on the same side. Wolves who get scryed by the GW are imediately back on the good team. The evil side is disadvantaged at this point. Hence the need for the EW to closely manage the wolves, and if necessary to be able to override the kills.

I told Boromir outright, because of all the information Morm had that if he was turned he was to be killed imediately. This would override all wolfish discussion, but it was for the good of the team.

The GW cannot dictate the seer's dream or the hunter's choice

Gurthang is free to correct me on this, but I do believe he did. That's why phantom refused to make a choice on who to hunt. He was waiting for Gurthang's directions.[/quote]

werewolves are much less likely, by nature, to be easily controlled.

Actually wolves are pack animals who will defer to the alpha of the group, in this case, the EW.

The werewolves should be more autonomous from the EW. He/She should be able to make suggestions, but not an out and out veto.

But what if the wolves pick the EW or another wolf? The only one who would know it is the EW. You forget the nature of evil is to be controlling. The EW and the wolves are a team, and the EW is the leader of that team. What would be the point of Wizards Werewolf if you took away the power of the Wizards?

[JennyHallu]

But that was phantom's choice to wait for direction, not a requirement.


And Roa, I never saw a blip of reasoning sent back to me on why the choices were what they were.


And we aren't wolves, we're werewolves, who go into a berserk hunger-rage when changed.


To me it seemed the greatest power of the wizards was the ability to choose their team, and what seemed most frustrating to me was that the way the rules played out the job was to have the biggest team, and not at all to have the best team. Especially in the beginning, and especially the hunter...that quite irritated me) My role as a team member was passive, not active: It was more important that I existed than what I did. The game became all kinds of thrilling fun as soon as you were dead, Roa.