WWJ X: Hithlum Zydeco Blues; Hísilómë in Hísimë

[Nogrod]

= Kuru
It is usually considered bad form to make direct reference to other games, much less link to them.

I'm sorry. I clearly haven't gotten used to the right taste in this. Even though I know this is a subject of debate anyway.

But my point remains.

= Form
Until such time as villagers in general get the idea into their heads that their attempts to catch a wolf on Day 1 will be nothing but luck... I shall continue to rail against them. 'tis only tradition, 'tis only fact I speak, and the overweening optimism of those thinking to catch a wolf by deductions on Day 1 is grating.

If these kinds of ideas come more common, they become the general excuse of not committing any real ideas on Day1. That plays into the wolves hands, not on the villagers (sorry: campers).

Day1 can make the difference - and that's why I wished to show you an example. Just check how the game can be played! There, it's not a question of luck, but of an athmosphere where everyone had to show some real participation - so the wolves (ie. penguins) couldn't hide behind the babble of pure in-character talk or the distaste of Day1's - and they were caught (one on Day one - and the others very soon on the basis of Day1 things, and they were no stupid penguins...)!

And now I'm shooting myself to my leg as I have to say that I'm not going to be in for a while (a bio & first post upgrade + scheming with Celuien in the Meadhall waiting, pronto, and the clock says it's 3.25AM here). But after I wake up, I'll be in with more substance - if possible.

[Kuruharan]

Ecco! Something just occurred to my fantastically enlightened brain!

(Maestro, make sure that portrait is of my right side. We want to get the flute in proper perspective.)

It seems to me that perhaps Signore Formendacil could be acting just a shade manipulative. His predictions could be a cleverly concealed tactic to direct behavior in a particular direction...since once predictions are announced, people have a tendency to perversely do the opposite. However, this might speak in his favor since he's lamenting...

(more polenta, per favore...)

...the lack of effective action on DAY ONE.

Still, it could be a clever little tactic. I do so love clever little tactics! Like this one time I'd hidden my cavalry in a ravine behind the enemy's flank, and...

[Glirdan]

Still, it could be a clever little tactic. I do so love clever little tactics! Like this one time I'd hidden my cavalry in a ravine behind the enemy's flank, and...(Kuru)

Actually, I must agree with you that it does seem odd that Formendacil keeps bringing up the fact that Day 1's are totaly useless until later on (which makes me ask why are you so negative about them if they become so useful which you said yourself?[directed to Form]) Perhaps he is using this little tactic to hide behind and make himself look less suspicious and merely his normal non helpful self on Day 1. Well, we'll never know unless we lynch him and frankly, I really don't want to vote now, but I may have to do so (It's Canada's Day tomorrow and I will be away from a computer all day). Therefor, my vote is

++Formendacil

Basically completely random. I must depart now. Good day to you all.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Basically completely random. I must depart now. Good day to you all.

Now this is something that always gets me. He just got done agreeing with Kuru and then 'random' votes for Formen. I don't know what to think because Glirdan seems to always be suspicious to me no matter what. So I'm uncertain if it is just mere indolence or something more malign.

Anyway, Kuru asked for productive ideas and here is one. We could assign everybody two other campmates to watch very closely and observe on a more detailed basis. The chances of the wolves getting each other would be slim but even if they did it would be great because after we kill a wolf it might be fairly obvious.

It would go something like this

Morm watches Glirdan and Kuru

Kuru watches Jenny and Formen

Formen watches....you get the picture.

Each person will be watched directly by two people and will be responsible for two. This will break up everybody watching trying to take in all the info and will break it up in more managable pieces. Also people won't slip through the cracks, so to speak. Now it would be imperative for every innocent to view their targets with an open and objective mind. Far too often we fall for the trap of concluding that somebody is a wolf then proving it with any shred of evidence. I'm probably the most guilty of this crime .

[Roa_Aoife]

Until such time as villagers in general get the idea into their heads that their attempts to catch a wolf on Day 1 will be nothing but luck... I shall continue to rail against them. 'tis only tradition, 'tis only fact I speak, and the overweening optimism of those thinking to catch a wolf by deductions on Day 1 is grating.

You know, as the one who caught Boro-wolf on Day 1 using reasonable deductions, I find that statement mildly insulting. (Why must everyone attirbute my accomplishments to luck and not my own skill?)

Morm, that problem with your plan is that we have wolves in the mix. Even if we have two people watching one, we could have a wolf watching a wolf, and making the innocent look bad, or two wolves watching an innocent and making that innocent look bad, or one wolf watching an innocent and still managing to hide.... you get the point. We still can't trust anyone. At least not yet, when we don't know anything. (Ever the advantage of the wolves.)

Anf frankly, Form, if you think it ought to be obvious that Day 1's are useless, why bother stating it? Face facts- those who think they are useless will continue to think so. Those who think they aren't will continue to do so. The only thing statements like yours do is sidetrack us from the problem at hand.

Of course, that may just be your plan. You keep posting, but you aren't saying anything new or useful. Get over yourself and move on.

[Nogrod]

Just going to sleep but can't help commenting on this...

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Anf frankly, Form, if you think it ought to be obvious that Day 1's are useless, why bother stating it? Face facts- those who think they are useless will continue to think so. Those who think they aren't will continue to do so. The only thing statements like yours do is sidetrack us from the problem at hand.

I totally agree! But would still like to point on a problem not openly stated in Roa's answer.

If people think Day1's are useless, why not to skip them all? The only trouble is, that then Day2 will become a new Day1 etc. And if we skip Day2 then with similar reasons...

We need people to open the game and start actually going into the bussiness. One of the main reasons I despise people who a) mock Day1's as an excuse on not to do anything ,or b) basically take on the strategy of posting minimally with no substance, is that it creates an inbalance in the game. Those who really invest in the game = actually play, will be the ones in the lynching-line in the beginning of the game, and those who just hang around (with evil intentions or just being clever enough in that sense) can lay back easily in a game where being lazy is the norm.

The problem is. In a village (a camp) where everyone just hangs around, nothing happens. Hanging around requires something to hang around on! So in a sense all those "I hate Day1's" or "I'll post only once aDay some nonsense" -people are parasites, drinking the blood of those who actually play. And that is morally quite low...

Think of a village inhabitated with 15 Forms! Everyone would just exclaim how stupid saying anything is. How could they decide their votes on any Day? Their Day1 would become Day2, Day3 etc... And surely, they would have made sure, that their votes had been in random, because there is nothing to go for... understandably.

But where's the fun? Where's the excitement? Where's the struggle? Where's the game?

Where's the reason to play anyway?

[Roa_Aoife]

I strongly suggest we move on from arguments for/against Day 1. It will only cause unnecessary confusion and draw us away from our goal.

I have to go, as it's nearing midnight here. (I can't imagine what Nogrod was still doing up.) I'll be back on shortly after my alarm clock wakes me up, but I'll have to go several hours before the deadline.

Give me something to analyze when I get back, okay? (Whee! Analysis!)

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Roa

Morm, that problem with your plan is that we have wolves in the mix. Even if we have two people watching one, we could have a wolf watching a wolf, and making the innocent look bad, or two wolves watching an innocent and making that innocent look bad, or one wolf watching an innocent and still managing to hide.... you get the point. We still can't trust anyone. At least not yet, when we don't know anything. (Ever the advantage of the wolves.)

So what really is the difference between this and the normal other than the wolves are forced to focus on few and when we detect they are deliberately making people look bad they are exposed to a seer dream or a village lynching? Afraid?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Think of a village inhabitated with 15 Forms! Everyone would just exclaim how stupid saying anything is. How could they decide their votes on any Day? Their Day1 would become Day2, Day3 etc... And surely, they would have made sure, that their votes had been in random, because there is nothing to go for... understandably.

No, it wouldn't...

All the Forms would have to vote on Day 1- and being Forms, they would do that.

And then there would be a voting record. And then a Night Kill.

And then things would get interesting.

There is no such thing as a truly, 100% random vote. It simply does not exist, short of draws for names- and I've rarely, if ever, seen that happen.

No, all the "random" votes that float around have SOME reasoning... Not deduction based so much as instinct based, a vote based on a dislike or a gut feeling. Or, in the case of wolves, a very careful crafted vote to make them look innocent, or to make them look like helpful innocents, or to set up a well-crafted, low-key disagreement between themselves and another wolf.

The difficulty is that the Wolvish rationale and the Ordo rationale cannot, typically, be differentiated on Day 1 itself. It is only with the passage of time and the possession of a Kill record that these things come to bear importance.

But where's the fun? Where's the excitement? Where's the struggle? Where's the game?

Where's the reason to play anyway?

In two words: Day 2.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

(which makes me ask why are you so negative about them if they become so useful which you said yourself?[directed to Form])

Actually, I didn't always hate Day 1s...

They've always been my least favourite day in WW. The only concrete thing in the game is the voting record and the night kill record. Any speculation pertaining thereto is mere speculation, until and unless you kill someone.

Then you find out.

And on Day 1, there is no voting record. There is no night kill record (the Mod doesn't count).

And, being of the sort of mind that I am, this means that I am a rather not-fan of Day 1s. I think on one game... back about XVIII or so... I stated rather more strongly than usual just how pointless it is to try and find "evidence" on Day 1. The evidence in Day 1 doesn't crop up until Day 2 or 3 or 4 or... you get the picture.

Well, I being a creature of habit, and habits being what they are... my hatred of Days 1 sort of devoloped into the approved version of Formendacil-in-Werewolf, and, not having anything better to do, I was content to let it be. I am a great respecter of tradition, Werewolf or otherwise, and it would be a shame just to let a tradition die because you all wanted it... and the core reasons for disliking Day 1s remain quite entrenched in my mind.

But if you want to know the REAL reason.... ordo, gifted, or wolf, I like tweaking people's noses. Especially the people like Morm and Roa who are so terribly tweakable...