Inbreeding... and a little incest

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think that the elves delighted in change, being masters of Art and given their highly creative nature:

How about the little speech of Galadriel in the second book of FotR (can't quote, don't have a book) that they would slowly forget and be forgotten and dwell in the past? Wouldn't that be considered a little nostalgic for the Elves of Lorien and the other Eldar in ME, and not induce change at all?

[Elu Ancalime]

Also hobbits, seem to like to marry within their family, but they must share more of the same names than actual blood. And besides brother-sister, what about a la Oedipus the King? In that play, his children (coming from him and his mother) did not have birth defecs, they were only looked on as 'monsters' in a symbolic sense.

And I recall that not only Cleopatra and Ptolemey, but the entire line of Egyptian rulers bred within their immediate family, which kep their bloodline "pure."
________
TOYOTA RACING HISTORY

[alatar]

Somehow this thread got me to thinking about the Dwarves, and the Fathers thereof. One gets the impression that Iluvatar made a bunch of the Firstborn and Secondborn. When each arrives on the scene, there seems to be more than just a few individuals.

How so with the dwarves? How many did Aule fashion? If the number were few, then some inbreeding would have to have taken place.

[Annatar!]

Just finished reading The Silmarillion (again) and can recall a sentence which stated that the Eldar had no great love of marrying their immediate kin i.e 1st cousins. The statement is in reference to Maeglin's love for his first cousin Idril Celebrindal, can't remeber what chapter though.
The Elven culture it seems also has scruples associated with this topic. This makes me wonder whether this developed from the Ainur, in much the same way 'morals' are taught and practiced in our human society as a result of religion and government (Eru don't like therefore we don't like)?
Or perhaps a notion of integrity, something they developed as a culture themselves, before the Valar found and summoned them, and whether this notion came about from a desire to maintain the fairness of their race.
I somehow get the feeling that, even if they bred with their immediate kin, it would probably have no real effect. A race free from sickness and pestilence may not have the genetic throwbacks that occur in mortal races, as a result of the inability of our bodies to 'deal' with the 'overlapping' of DNA, perhaps they simply just don't want to do it.

As a side thought maybe that's the difference between the Avari and the Eldar. The Avari were unwilling because they thought in Aman they'd be frowned on for wanting to get it on with mummy!!!

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Alatar, I believe The Silmarillion says that Aule made seven dwarves. In one of Tolkien's letters, he says that there were thirteen originally, seven males each with his mate, "save Durin the eldest who had none." This latter account seems far more likely to me, since if there were only seven to begin with, they would have to be of mixed gender, and it's difficult to see how the Seven Houses of the Dwarves could have arisen from that.

[alatar]

Maybe the seven Dwarves were met by a lady by the name of Snow White...(must get Disney out of brain) ?

Even if there were 14, that still begs the question about, well, how it all got started as in the second generation everyone's marrying 'cousins,' and in each generation after that the families become even closer and mingled. Still, it might be possible, though 12-14 individuals might be a nonviable population, however long-lived.

[Anguirel]

Actually, I've heard (speaking as no kind of scientist) that eventually a lot of incest cancels out and pretty much stabilises. Hence Cleopatra not being a drooling idiot after ten generations of inbreeding sister-marrying Ptolemies.

Ptolemies=Dwarves? Do we have an allegory here, ladies and gentlemen?

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Alatar, I believe The Silmarillion says that Aule made seven dwarves. In one of Tolkien's letters, he says that there were thirteen originally, seven males each with his mate, "save Durin the eldest who had none." This latter account seems far more likely to me, since if there were only seven to begin with, they would have to be of mixed gender, and it's difficult to see how the Seven Houses of the Dwarves could have arisen from that.

This stirs up memories of a theory I think I had once, a few years ago, about dangers of "inbreeding" and why it didn't wipe out certain societies over the years. (I may have formed this theory about some other piece of literature and the distant ancestors of the characters, but I'll just file off a few serial numbers, splash on a little paint, and call it an Arda-specific theory instead!)

What if the "original ancestors" of each species -- those 13 Dwarves, for instance -- were created to be "genetically perfect"? No nasty recessive genes that could pile up in the first few generations to create numerous children who had visible and handicapping physical defects, serious heart trouble, terrible eyesight, hemophilia, etc.? So if you had first cousins (or second, or third cousins) marrying back and forth in the early days, it wouldn't cause much trouble until nasty mutations started to creep in. Either by accident in the natural course of events, or else because of the well-known corrupting influence of the Shadow. (Or some of each?)

As near as I can recall, some of Tolkien's writings suggested Orcs and Trolls were basically bred from the original Elf and Men stock by Morgoth, using prisoners he'd captured and then tinkered with somehow at his leisure, way back in the day. Obviously he was able to make some drastic changes along the way to make sure future generations "bred true" with their new forms and characteristics. I've read claims that other notes Tolkien made at different times suggest that he also played around with the idea that those critters weren't long-lost "cousins" of Elves and Men, but merely second-rate imitations somehow created by Morgoth from scratch to make better servants. Either way, they were obviously living creatures that could reproduce themselves, and if Morgoth were to achieve such a thing in the modern world we'd say he had considerable ability in "genetic engineering" (although he probably didn't call it that and may not have known a thing about the structure of tiny little DNA molecules. Maybe he just knew how to really exert his willpower to get roughly the results he wanted? Mind over matter?)

If we grant Morgoth the "genetic engineering" capability, why not assume that nasty genes that eventually crept into the gene pools of one species or another were the result of his evil influence? Whether his magic had an effect similar to powerful radiation, or whether he was putting nasty mutagenic substances into water supplies (rivers, lakes, etc.), or whether he released a few retroviruses or some such thing out into the world . . . anything that would gradually cause visible defects (and sometimes defects not visible to the naked eye) to weaken the future generations of Men, Elves, Dwarves? Particularly if they inbred over time? Frequently marrying cousins back and forth within a rural community over a span of centuries, for instance?

That would explain why the Dwarves, for instance, didn't run into serious trouble in the first several generations when they were all descended from the same six married couples or however it worked. (Six married couples plus Durin? Did Durin later marry someone else's daughter?) The mutations triggered by Morgoth hadn't had much time to sink into their gene pool yet. By the time you had a nasty recessive gene lurking in one House or another, marrying a member of another House would probably keep it lurking recessively, unknown and unworried about, for a few generations longer until at long last it was potentially "reunited" with a copy of itself in a new marriage and then the two would have one chance in four of being able to pair together in a particular kid and make his life less happy than it otherwise would have been?